driving slow : your views ?

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

All drivers (on blue lights or not), should use the two second rule. Only when beginning the overtake should you go within those two seconds. If you didn't then you would never overtake. But the most important thing is that you begin your overtake from a safe distance behind the vehicle in front, and not from close behind it as you implied.


If you had taken any sort of advanced test (blue light or otherwise), then you would know this. So stop throwing insults about because someone doesn't agree with you.

OK, so we have now established that you essentially follow at the same distance you would normally follow a car that you wer not going to ovetake until you decide it is safe to overtake and then you start accelerating from a following position with the expectation that you will complete the overtake. You are not suggesting that there is a point where you draw forward without the expectation of continuing the overtake. Have I understood you correctly?

The fundamental difference between the overtaking position and the following position is one of visibility. The following position is one that although you do not have a clear view of the road, you should be able to stop without any particular excitement if something unexpected happens ahead. (This could entail being further back than normal if the car in front is excessively tailgating, but then we are probably not in overtaking scenarios then anyway).

You keep rephrasing what I say to something else, the overtaking position is not close behind, it is closer. Given that the average driver often follows at something within what I would consider the overtaking position, I think this is misleading and makes me confused as to where you think the following position is.

To take the overtaking position, which is within that distance of the safe following distance, you have already established that you have sufficient visibility that there will not be any unexpected events happening so you can then follow more closely, and if the situation changes you can drop back.

And I say drop back quite deliberately, and I will once again quote Roadsafe (which as you keep raising blue lights, is explicitly not a guide to "blue light" driving and contains no guidance on blue light driving or pursuit but the basic level of competence expected for police driving which gives me reason to believe that you haven't read and understood what Roadcraft is about).

The overtaking position is generally closer than the following position and minimises the distance you have to travel to overtake. It also shows the driver in front that you want to overtake.

Note that last phrase "that you want to overtake" not "that you are overtaking". You describe something else, you describe hanging back until you have decided to overtake and then you move forward and overtake in one movement. Simply put, that is not Roadcraft, that is not IAM advanced driving, you have misunderstood the process that is taught.

Simple scenario, long straight road with good visibility but oncoming traffic. You sit in the following position. You see a sizeable gap in the traffic, you have good visibility and there are no junctions and there are no other cars in front of the car in front. There are no buildings, farms or any other indication of potential hazard. You therefore move forward in anticipation of the gap and move a little further out to maintain visibility. A car appears in the distance and you decide the overtake is not on so you drop back and in. As that car approaches you decide that the conditions are again good for an overtake so you move forward, again in the knowledge that there are no hazards in the road ahead and as the oncoming car passes you once again convince yourself the road is suitable for overtaking and pull out. As you gain a clear path you can then accelerate so you are never heading closer to the rear of the car in front than the position you originally took.

Again you say I have not passed any advanced test and suggest I am being insulting when in fact you are suggesting I am lying which I would say is something more offensive. Do you not know how to look me up on the IAM web site under the F1rst listing? http://www.iam.org.uk/drivers/f1rst (search for Spencer, there are only two entries).

Try watching the Chris Gilbert videos if you are not clear on this.

Jamie_Carter

nobbysn*ts wrote: »

Driving attitude certainly makes a difference, and nationality seems to affect attitude in the main way. Road conditions affect drivers as well, but then, in different ways and degrees depending on nationality.

You obviously lack experience

Jamie_Carter

nobbysn*ts wrote: »

Think we'll be fine. You don't seem to need lessons on story telling though.

If you can't find the statistics then you obviously do need lessons

Jamie_Carter

IanMSpencer wrote: »

OK, so we have now established that you essentially follow at the same distance you would normally follow a car that you wer not going to ovetake until you decide it is safe to overtake and then you start accelerating from a following position with the expectation that you will complete the overtake. You are not suggesting that there is a point where you draw forward without the expectation of continuing the overtake. Have I understood you correctly?

The fundamental difference between the overtaking position and the following position is one of visibility. The following position is one that although you do not have a clear view of the road, you should be able to stop without any particular excitement if something unexpected happens ahead. (This could entail being further back than normal if the car in front is excessively tailgating, but then we are probably not in overtaking scenarios then anyway).

You keep rephrasing what I say to something else, the overtaking position is not close behind, it is closer. Given that the average driver often follows at something within what I would consider the overtaking position, I think this is misleading and makes me confused as to where you think the following position is.

To take the overtaking position, which is within that distance of the safe following distance, you have already established that you have sufficient visibility that there will not be any unexpected events happening so you can then follow more closely, and if the situation changes you can drop back.

And I say drop back quite deliberately, and I will once again quote Roadsafe (which as you keep raising blue lights, is explicitly not a guide to "blue light" driving and contains no guidance on blue light driving or pursuit but the basic level of competence expected for police driving which gives me reason to believe that you haven't read and understood what Roadcraft is about).



Note that last phrase "that you want to overtake" not "that you are overtaking". You describe something else, you describe hanging back until you have decided to overtake and then you move forward and overtake in one movement. Simply put, that is not Roadcraft, that is not IAM advanced driving, you have misunderstood the process that is taught.

Simple scenario, long straight road with good visibility but oncoming traffic. You sit in the following position. You see a sizeable gap in the traffic, you have good visibility and there are no junctions and there are no other cars in front of the car in front. There are no buildings, farms or any other indication of potential hazard. You therefore move forward in anticipation of the gap and move a little further out to maintain visibility. A car appears in the distance and you decide the overtake is not on so you drop back and in. As that car approaches you decide that the conditions are again good for an overtake so you move forward, again in the knowledge that there are no hazards in the road ahead and as the oncoming car passes you once again convince yourself the road is suitable for overtaking and pull out. As you gain a clear path you can then accelerate so you are never heading closer to the rear of the car in front than the position you originally took.

Again you say I have not passed any advanced test and suggest I am being insulting when in fact you are suggesting I am lying which I would say is something more offensive. Do you not know how to look me up on the IAM web site under the F1rst listing? http://www.iam.org.uk/drivers/f1rst (search for Spencer, there are only two entries).

Try watching the Chris Gilbert videos if you are not clear on this.

It's quite simple. You don't move any closer than a safe distance until you are actually making an overtaking manoeuvre, otherwise you will be endangering yourself and other road users. And you indicate your intention to overtake by signalling. If you can't overtake without moving closer first, then it isn't safe to overtake. It makes no difference if you are driving normally, or if you are driving on blues, you still have to drive in a way that doesn't endanger other road users.


As for the IAM database, that could be anyone.

stampede

Any overtaking depends on the car you are in, if it's a slower car then it takes a lot of planning, but some cars can accelerate fast enough to mean that you pull out first then apply the throttle.

Jamie_Carter

stampede wrote: »

Any overtaking depends on the car you are in, if it's a slower car then it takes a lot of planning, but some cars can accelerate fast enough to mean that you pull out first then apply the throttle.

Very true. But the same applies regardless of how fast your vehicle is, you still start the manoeuvre from a safe distance, you just need far more space to complete the manoeuvre when in a slower vehicle.

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

It's quite simple. You don't move any closer than a safe distance until you are actually making an overtaking manoeuvre, otherwise you will be endangering yourself and other road users. And you indicate your intention to overtake by signalling. If you can't overtake without moving closer first, then it isn't safe to overtake. It makes no difference if you are driving normally, or if you are driving on blues, you still have to drive in a way that doesn't endanger other road users.

Thank you. That shows conclusively that you have never read Roadcraft, understood it, taken an advanced driver's course or passed any advanced drivers' course and makes me curious as to why you think you know better than the authors of Roadcraft or my instructors or my examiner. Recall that our little spat started with your "Who told you that?" and since then you have continuously said that I don't understand a book that you have clearly never read. Seriously, for you to be right and me be wrong, you'd have to re-write 20 odd pages of Roadcraft.

So I think it is now appropriate to ask who told you the above? It sounds like the sort of thing someone would say who believes that they are a good driver without ever having been on any course other than a discussion with mates.

The Roadcraft system is not entirely intuitive, not what people might expect so it is not surprising to me that you are wary of my comments, and I may not have translated everything perfectly, but the system is very different from what you describe.

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

As for the IAM database, that could be anyone.

Incorrect again. It could only be someone who holds a driving licence with the name I M Spencer, as you would know if you'd done a test, as you have to present your driving licence. I won't embarrass you further by uploading a scan of my certificate.

UsernameAlreadyExists

You two need to have a friendly (non-alcoholic) beer somewhere. I'd love to watch the conversation that ensues, and who would grab their keys first?


IanMSpencer Stop posting identifiable details!

Strider590

stampede wrote: »

Any overtaking depends on the car you are in, if it's a slower car then it takes a lot of planning, but some cars can accelerate fast enough to mean that you pull out first then apply the throttle.

Actually I think that overtaking depends on who your overtaking and whether they know what your planning or not.

Which is why I usually perform the "stealth overtake", I stay away from the centre line, stay back from the car in front and don't indicate before pulling out.
Because 80%+ of drivers don't like being overtaken, your best bet is almost always to keep your intentions invisible until the last second.

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

UsernameAlreadyExists wrote: »

You two need to have a friendly (non-alcoholic) beer somewhere. I'd love to watch the conversation that ensues, and who would grab their keys first?


IanMSpencer Stop posting identifiable details!

I'm happy to be identifiable, I've been doing this Internet thing for a few years now, in fact been doing forums since 1990.

And yes, I should have backed off some time ago - but then you haven't seen the stuff I wrote and didn't post Classic someone is wrong on the Internet!

Jamie, you can have the last word...