Grant of Confirmation

Gillybilly_2

I am so grateful to NiceD for starting this thread and all the other generous contributors, as up until yesterday when I found it, I was the proverbial 'rabbit in headlights', wondering how to complete the C1 and C5 forms for Confirmation.  There is little/no help on-line and the Sheriff court staff (Lothian and Borders) cannot help as it is classed as a Large Estate.

My mum and brother-in-law are the named Executors in my step-father's will, however my brother-in-law is not involved and I am helping mum.  I know several contributors have offered to send anonymised copies of these forms and I would really appreciate this.  (I am more of a visual learner).  The Will leaves everything to my mum, except an item of furniture. (The house automatically goes to mum in the deeds).  They have  joint savings/bank accounts but her husband had bank and savings in his own name.  One of them has asked for Confirmation.  This is a total minefield for me and it seems for most people without the legalese.  

Another question is about the 'Legal Rights' of the deceased's children.  There are two, one of which has been estranged for many years, both live in England and apart from the piece of furniture, neither were gifted anything.  They are both aware of the death, but is there a legal obligation on the Executor to notify them of these rights , or is the onus on them to make a claim.  The estate is not massive (under £50,000) and I know that the children have 20 years from date of death to make a claim but it is not clear where the obligation lies.

I am staying with my mum currently, so hoping to be as productive as possible in the lockdown. I have printed copies of both forms and have the Guidance notes on-line, however I had no clue of the archaic wording required or the meaning of some of it.

Thanks in advance

Taphappy

I am new to the forum and am named executor in my late wife's will. It appears that I will require to apply for confirmation and thanks to the information on this site I feel ready to start filling in Forms C1 & C5.
I have not got off to a very good start as so far the solicitors who drew up her will have so far been unable to find the original document although I have a copy.
In the meantime I propose to draw up the inventory.
Can I ask G55 20 if he/she could email a copy of the inventory he/she submitted to the Sheriff to give me some idea of the format required.
Thanks

Locketmac

Hi I hope someone can help.
I’m trying to complete a Grant of Confirmation (C1and C5) for my dad. I know the same figures are used in both forms I can’t make sense of what to do with his joint property (with my mum who is still alive). It reads like on the inventory (C1) I only record half the value which is his share, but do I use the full about anywhere? On the C5 form do I put any value into 11.3 and/or section D?? (Not sure difference between them!) Any help much appreciated or if anyone had completed these forms with a joint property. Thank you 

Taphappy

Can anyone help.
My late wife and I had joint accounts with various financial institutions in both Scotland and England. I know that I have to declare the Scottish account on a 50/50 basis on Form C1 but is it necessary to declare the accounts with English based banks given the difference between Scottish and English law. Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

naedanger

Taphappy said:

Can anyone help.
My late wife and I had joint accounts with various financial institutions in both Scotland and England. I know that I have to declare the Scottish account on a 50/50 basis on Form C1 but is it necessary to declare the accounts with English based banks given the difference between Scottish and English law. Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

I don't think you necessarily do have to declare a Scottish account on a 50/50 basis in Scotland. It could be 0/100 or 100/0 or any other split.

"In Scotland, when one person opens a bank or building society account in joint names unless they specify at the outset that they are actually making a gift at the time, the addition of a second name operates only for the bank’s administrative purposes; it authorises the bank to deal with someone other than the investor. It also means that the survivor can operate the account after the deceased’s death, but it does not give them legal title to the deceased’s share. It does not mean that the funds belong to the named individuals jointly.

So where the funds in a joint account have been wholly provided by the deceased, we would expect to see the whole funds as part of the estate. But, if the other joint owner had put in all the funds, none of the account would belong to the deceased and would not be included as part of their estate. Where the funds are provided jointly, the current balance reflects the proportionate share of the provider and where withdrawals are made for the benefit of any of the owners, their share is reduced proportionately. If any withdrawals have been made by or for the benefit of anyone other than the owners, there may have been a gift by the deceased to be taken into account when filling in the C5(2006) or IHT400 later. "

So if all the deposits were from you then I don't think you would declare it at all. I think when it is difficult to tell, with both owners paying in and out then, most people use 50/50, especially for husband and wife accounts.

Were all the accounts opened in Scotland? If so then from the guidance it seems to me that the Scottish approach should apply. 

naedanger

Locketmac said:

Hi I hope someone can help.
I’m trying to complete a Grant of Confirmation (C1and C5) for my dad. I know the same figures are used in both forms I can’t make sense of what to do with his joint property (with my mum who is still alive). It reads like on the inventory (C1) I only record half the value which is his share, but do I use the full about anywhere? On the C5 form do I put any value into 11.3 and/or section D?? (Not sure difference between them!) Any help much appreciated or if anyone had completed these forms with a joint property. Thank you 

Provided the property did not pass to your mother by survivorship, I believe you should state on the inventory that your father owned one half (as that was his share) of the property and put in the value of that half in the last column. You don't put the full value in anywhere on C1 or C5.

In 11.3 you don't put in any value as his share did not pass to your mother by survivorship (provided that is the position).

What do you mean by section D? Can you give a page number?

Locketmac

naedanger said:

Locketmac said:

Hi I hope someone can help.
I’m trying to complete a Grant of Confirmation (C1and C5) for my dad. I know the same figures are used in both forms I can’t make sense of what to do with his joint property (with my mum who is still alive). It reads like on the inventory (C1) I only record half the value which is his share, but do I use the full about anywhere? On the C5 form do I put any value into 11.3 and/or section D?? (Not sure difference between them!) Any help much appreciated or if anyone had completed these forms with a joint property. Thank you 

Provided the property did not pass to your mother by survivorship, I believe you should state on the inventory that your father owned one half (as that was his share) of the property and put in the value of that half in the last column. You don't put the full value in anywhere on C1 or C5.

In 11.3 you don't put in any value as his share did not pass to your mother by survivorship (provided that is the position).

What do you mean by section D? Can you give a page number?

Thank you so much for your help it’s much appreciated!
In the C5 inventory I have only one half of the property (you are right it did not pass on through survivorship) 
My Inventory total I have in box 11 in C5 form and box 11.1 on pg3 of C5. Is this the same value I put in box 21 of C5 form? 
I undestand about box 11.3 which I will now leave blank, box D is just below this on pg3 of C5. I wondered if in section 12 I need to write anything about the house/total amount and therefore any value in box D? 
If I have it correct- Once I know what goes in D that lets me calculate E and the value in E gets copied back to box 22 of C1.
I hope that all makes sense and thank you again! 

naedanger

Locketmac said:

naedanger said:

Locketmac said:

Hi I hope someone can help.
I’m trying to complete a Grant of Confirmation (C1and C5) for my dad. I know the same figures are used in both forms I can’t make sense of what to do with his joint property (with my mum who is still alive). It reads like on the inventory (C1) I only record half the value which is his share, but do I use the full about anywhere? On the C5 form do I put any value into 11.3 and/or section D?? (Not sure difference between them!) Any help much appreciated or if anyone had completed these forms with a joint property. Thank you 

Provided the property did not pass to your mother by survivorship, I believe you should state on the inventory that your father owned one half (as that was his share) of the property and put in the value of that half in the last column. You don't put the full value in anywhere on C1 or C5.

In 11.3 you don't put in any value as his share did not pass to your mother by survivorship (provided that is the position).

What do you mean by section D? Can you give a page number?

Thank you so much for your help it’s much appreciated!
In the C5 inventory I have only one half of the property (you are right it did not pass on through survivorship) 
My Inventory total I have in box 11 in C5 (I assume you mean C1?) form and box 11.1 on pg3 of C5. Is this the same value I put in box 21 of C5 (I assume you mean C1?) form? No not necessarily - but perhaps in your late father's case. Have you any figures in boxes 11.2 to 11.6? Box A on C5 is the sum of 11.1 to 11.7. This figure i.e. what is in box A is copied to box 21 of C1. (It actually says, on C5 just under box E, where boxes A, C and E go on form C1.)

I undestand about box 11.3 which I will now leave blank, box D is just below this on pg3 of C5. I wondered if in section 12 I need to write anything about the house/total amount and therefore any value in box D? Box D is the amount of money going to your Mum plus any going to a charity with possibly one quite complicated adjustment. Have you and/or all other direct descendents either claimed your legal rights or fully renounced them? If not you have to calculate the amount going to your Mum plus charity on the assumption that all undischarge legal rights are claimed in full.
If I have it correct- Once I know what goes in D that lets me calculate E and the value in E gets copied back to box 22 of C1. Box E gets copied to C1 box 23. (It might be a very small number if most the estate went to your Mum. ) Box C gets copied to C1 box 22. 

I hope that all makes sense and thank you again! 

I have added comments in bold.

Locketmac

naedanger said:

Locketmac said:

naedanger said:

Locketmac said:

Hi I hope someone can help.
I’m trying to complete a Grant of Confirmation (C1and C5) for my dad. I know the same figures are used in both forms I can’t make sense of what to do with his joint property (with my mum who is still alive). It reads like on the inventory (C1) I only record half the value which is his share, but do I use the full about anywhere? On the C5 form do I put any value into 11.3 and/or section D?? (Not sure difference between them!) Any help much appreciated or if anyone had completed these forms with a joint property. Thank you 

Provided the property did not pass to your mother by survivorship, I believe you should state on the inventory that your father owned one half (as that was his share) of the property and put in the value of that half in the last column. You don't put the full value in anywhere on C1 or C5.

In 11.3 you don't put in any value as his share did not pass to your mother by survivorship (provided that is the position).

What do you mean by section D? Can you give a page number?

Thank you so much for your help it’s much appreciated!
In the C5 inventory I have only one half of the property (you are right it did not pass on through survivorship) 
My Inventory total I have in box 11 in C5 (I assume you mean C1?) form and box 11.1 on pg3 of C5. Is this the same value I put in box 21 of C5 (I assume you mean C1?) form? No not necessarily - but perhaps in your late father's case. Have you any figures in boxes 11.2 to 11.6? Box A on C5 is the sum of 11.1 to 11.7. This figure i.e. what is in box A is copied to box 21 of C1. (It actually says, on C5 just under box E, where boxes A, C and E go on form C1.)

I undestand about box 11.3 which I will now leave blank, box D is just below this on pg3 of C5. I wondered if in section 12 I need to write anything about the house/total amount and therefore any value in box D? Box D is the amount of money going to your Mum plus any going to a charity with possibly one quite complicated adjustment. Have you and/or all other direct descendents either claimed your legal rights or fully renounced them? If not you have to calculate the amount going to your Mum plus charity on the assumption that all undischarge legal rights are claimed in full.
If I have it correct- Once I know what goes in D that lets me calculate E and the value in E gets copied back to box 22 of C1. Box E gets copied to C1 box 23. (It might be a very small number if most the estate went to your Mum. ) Box C gets copied to C1 box 22. 

I hope that all makes sense and thank you again! 

I have added comments in bold.

Thank you again-
yeah I mean on C1 box 11 same as 11.1 on C5
11.2 to 11.7 (on C5) I have no values so box A here is same value again. Box B I only have cost of funeral. Box C easily calculated (A-B) 
I saw in C5 where A, C and E went 21,22,23 respectively but when read the help to fill out info it’s says box E goes into 22?! Will ignore this and do as it says on C5 with A,C,E! 
I think box D maybe blank? No money going to charity, no legal rights claimed etc so think leave blank?  Marking my value for E the same as C? 
Dad only has house/current account and savings account all of which left to mum, I’m there only daughter. I feel this form should be quite straight forward for this reason, hence trying to do it myself. I am again very grateful for your help.

Taphappy

Thanks Naedanger. Yes all the accounts were opened in Scotland so probably should include them in inventory to avoid any comeback at a later stage.