Grant of Confirmation

naedanger

B0nkers said:

naedanger said:

The assets that go in the inventory are those that your father was entitled to leave to others in his will i.e. solely owned assets and his share of assets that he was a joint owner of, but which did not pass automatically by survivorship to someone else. The total of the inventory goes into box 11.1 (Think of this figure as the value of the assets he left in his will.)

His share of the assets that pass automatically to the survivor go in box 11.3. (Think of this as the value of the assets he owned at his death but which he could not leave to others in his will because the ownership passed automatically on death to the other joint owners.)

The taxman is interested in both figures. Don't include the value of any assets in both boxes or you will be double counting them.)

If the house was jointly owned then the exact wording describing the ownership matters since the ownership could be either on a last survivor basis or not.

In Scotland most joint bank accounts are not held on a last survivor basis.  

1) House - whether to enter his share on the inventory or not depends on whether it was owned on a last survivor basis or not). 
Bank accounts - enter his share of the balance on the inventory.
If all the children took their full legal right would the estate be liable to inheritance tax? (Probably equivalent to asking does the aggregate of the childrens' legal rights exceed £325,000?) If not then I doubt HMRC will ask for evidence that the rights were revoked. 
2) The figure in 11.1 should equal the total of the amounts shown in the inventory. 

Brilliant - thanks.

The house is held on a last survivor basis so I don't put that in the inventory, I just put his share in box 11.3.

In terms of the bank account point - is that the location of the bank account rather than the fact they were in Scotland?  The bank accounts are joint accounts but held at an English bank (sort code location is England) as they moved around a bit and were there when they opened the account.  So is it the location of the deceased or the location of the asset?

It will all be below IHT thresholds so the safest thing might be to put it half share in the inventory.

Thanks again.

Firstly, from a practical point of view:

IHT is payable on the sum of box 11.1 and 11.3 so you won't be accused of tax evasion if you put the figure in the wrong box, nor will it make any difference to the IHT amount.

Secondly I didn't have this issue so I am not answering from experience. This is what the guidance says:

In Scotland, when one person opens a bank or building society account in joint names unless

they specify at the outset that they are actually making a gift at the time, the addition of a second

name operates only for the bank’s administrative purposes; it authorises the bank to deal with

someone other than the investor. It also means that the survivor can operate the account after the

deceased’s death, but it does not give them legal title to the deceased’s share. It does not mean that

the funds belong to the named individuals jointly.

So where the funds in a joint account have been wholly provided by the deceased, we would expect

to see the whole funds as part of the estate. But, if the other joint owner had put in all the funds,

none of the account would belong to the deceased and would not be included as part of their estate.

Where the funds are provided jointly, the current balance reflects the proportionate share of the

provider and where withdrawals are made for the benefit of any of the owners, their share is reduced

proportionately.

Based on that guidance I would enter the deceased's share in the inventory. (Though the guidance is not completely explicit on this point, I would read it as saying it is where you open the account that matters for this particular point.)

As the previous poster has noted, you need to list the estate under headings in a specified order, listed at the top of p3 of C1. For that purpose the territory depends on the location of the head office. Also, from memory, even if you have no estate in a particular territory you should still include it with a nil figure, e.g. Estate in Northern Ireland   NIL.

PS Just seen you think the accounts were opened in England. Therefore I think they shouldn't, strictly speaking, be listed in the inventory. However I would probably do as you suggested and include it in the inventory. No one is going to check where they were when they opened it. (The bank have presumably already released the money anyway.)

naedanger

B0nkers said:

This has been a fantastic thread, thank you so much to everyone who has shared their experiences. 

I am completing forms C1 & C5 after my dad passed away and have a couple (seemingly very simple!) queries but I cannot work them out. 

Maybe I need to understand more about what passes to spouse automatically on survivorship versus a will that leaves everything to spouse.  The above question has helped but I am still confused and even if I work out which assets do and which don't I am not sure which go in the inventory section and which don't.

1) Dad had an ISA in his name but other than that all assets (house, bank accounts etc.) were in joint names with my mum.  The will leaves everything to her (children given up legitim rights – do I need to evidence that in any way?).

Do I list all assets in the inventory (those in dads sole name and those in joint names) but only record 50% of the value for joint assets? is this entered different for assets that pass to spouse automatically (e.g. house).

2) This is similar to the question from testershah immediately above.  If I’m only putting 50% of the value of joint assets in the inventory, it is that 50% value that would be copied across to 11.1 on the C5.  If that is the case do I leave 11.3 blank?

If anyone has anything like a similar example of a completed inventory sheet with 50% apportioned for joint accounts that they would be willing to share (personal information removed of course) I would be so grateful.

I suspect you have alreadly done so, but if you haven't, you should ask the institution with the ISA whether they need confirmation. There is a possibility that confirmation is not required. 

[It sounds like you don't need confirmation for any of the other assets. So there may be a possibility you don't need to apply for confirmation at all.]

B0nkers

naedanger said:

B0nkers said:

This has been a fantastic thread, thank you so much to everyone who has shared their experiences. 

I am completing forms C1 & C5 after my dad passed away and have a couple (seemingly very simple!) queries but I cannot work them out. 

Maybe I need to understand more about what passes to spouse automatically on survivorship versus a will that leaves everything to spouse.  The above question has helped but I am still confused and even if I work out which assets do and which don't I am not sure which go in the inventory section and which don't.

1) Dad had an ISA in his name but other than that all assets (house, bank accounts etc.) were in joint names with my mum.  The will leaves everything to her (children given up legitim rights – do I need to evidence that in any way?).

Do I list all assets in the inventory (those in dads sole name and those in joint names) but only record 50% of the value for joint assets? is this entered different for assets that pass to spouse automatically (e.g. house).

2) This is similar to the question from testershah immediately above.  If I’m only putting 50% of the value of joint assets in the inventory, it is that 50% value that would be copied across to 11.1 on the C5.  If that is the case do I leave 11.3 blank?

If anyone has anything like a similar example of a completed inventory sheet with 50% apportioned for joint accounts that they would be willing to share (personal information removed of course) I would be so grateful.

I suspect you have alreadly done so, but if you haven't, you should ask the institution with the ISA whether they need confirmation. There is a possibility that confirmation is not required. 

[It sounds like you don't need confirmation for any of the other assets. So there may be a possibility you don't need to apply for confirmation at all.]

you guys are great thanks - I think the penny's dropped now!  So the only assets listed in the inventory are ones that would require confirmation (seems obvious now) and if the ISA provider doesn't require it then I probably don't need confirmation at all.  I will double check with them.  Thank you.

naedanger

Not quite. 
You only need confirmation if you cannot collect and distribute the assets without it. So if any institution says (in effect) we need proof you are indeed the executor and have a right to have these assets released into your care then you need to go to the sheriff court to get this proof. Most banks don't require confirmation for assets below quite a high threshold e.g. £30,000 or £50,000 or even £100,000. But some have much lower limits e.g. National Savings its £5,000. Also if the house was in the deceased's sole name you would need confirmation. (So far as you said.)

However if you need confirmation because even one institution requires it, then I believe you need to list all assets that pass via the will in the inventory. 

So if you had £5,001 in National Savings then you could be facing a bill for sheriff court fees alone of over £500 (if you had over £250,000 of assets passing via the will in total, even if the rest of them could be released without confirmation) just to collect the National Savings accounts. 

Cearcan

Very useful information on this forum. I would be grateful if anyone is willing to send me a copy of a completed and anonymised form C1 to help with wording and layout of Confirmation form. I am trying to deal with husbands estate (in Scotland) and need grant of confirmation for shares and property which were both solely in his name. Also do I need a lawyer to do this since property is involved ? Thanks. 🙋🏻

testershah

Hi all
For box 9. All property was in my fathers name and left to mum under will.  They were both married.  C5 form questions here. 

1. Do I have to enter anything for box 9? 

2   Box 11.3 would be zero as the assets were in dads name. In addition I’ve already listed it all on p3 of the form full price share in price of shares column and half of it in the last column. So I’m hoping that’s covers whatever they are asking including movable and immovable estate either way. 

3. For q 12 do I have to list anything here ?  My brother and sister and I don’t want to claim anything as my dad left it all to mum. I have left q 9 haven’t answered it.
estate is worth £274302.06 so not sure if I need to anger anything as mum was left everything and therefore should be exempt under that. 

I’m not very educated in law. So please bare with my questions and lack of knowledge. 

Thanks and all help is much much appreciated. Thankyou 

testershah

Hi 

Should I copy of amount from box 22 over to box 23?   

After deducting funeral expenses net value is 269284. 80

As everything was left in will to mum I think she would be therefore exempt from inheritance tax. Am I right in thinking I put that amount as it is from 23 to 24?  Thanks 

GSS20

testershah said:

Hi 

Should I copy of amount from box 22 over to box 23?   

After deducting funeral expenses net value is 269284. 80

As everything was left in will to mum I think she would be therefore exempt from inheritance tax. Am I right in thinking I put that amount as it is from 23 to 24?  Thanks 

Box 22 and 23 was the same figure. I put excepted estate as no spouse. I think if you filled in the IHT217 then you would tick that box but sorry I’m not sure on that one as there was no spouse or IHT to think about in mine. I’m sure somebody else may be able to answer that part of your question.

testershah

GSS20 said:

testershah said:

Hi 

Should I copy of amount from box 22 over to box 23?   

After deducting funeral expenses net value is 269284. 80

As everything was left in will to mum I think she would be therefore exempt from inheritance tax. Am I right in thinking I put that amount as it is from 23 to 24?  Thanks 

Box 22 and 23 was the same figure. I put excepted estate as no spouse. I think if you filled in the IHT217 then you would tick that box but sorry I’m not sure on that one as there was no spouse or IHT to think about in mine. I’m sure somebody else may be able to answer that part of your question.

Thanks Ever so much
I think I am almost ready to submit.
I have:

1 Complete, signed and dated form C1

2 Complete, signed and dated form C5

3 Complete, signed and dated form  IHT217

4 Signed dated and docquetted will 

5 Full death Certificate

I know I need to send c1 c5 and will to sherriffdom of lothian and borders.
-Am I right in thinking IHT 217 gets sent in with and to same address as c1 and c5?
-Also rights to legitim were renounced by all three children so therefore I have left box 12 as empty and completed box 9 with yes as renounced and there for 0 as unrenounced value.  Is this correct?
I also have the covering letter.  Does this need to mentione anything in particular?

Thanks  

a_kilo_of_pennies

Hi all,
I've just received my application back (after a bit of a hiccup the first time round) with the following feedback.  Annoyingly, I made the same mistake as someone else earlier in this thread and did not put a place of signing of the docquet of the will, which I can amend.  However, I'm a bit confused to resolve these two points:

1. "The deceased and the executor are not designed in the will, this requires to be clarified in the declaration;"
2. "Box 3 on page 2 of the C1 is empty, please complete as required;"

For the first point, my mother (the deceased) names me as executor (jointly with her then-partner) and says I'm her son when mentioning beneficiaries. This is my declaration:
"Mr [FULL NAME], son of and executor-nominate of the late [DECEASED FULL NAME], residing at [MY ADDRESS IN SCOTLAND], conform to the will of the said deceased dated [DATE OF WILL]. Said will is produced herewith docquetted and signed by me as relative hereto; I confirm that I have never been married to or in a civil partnership with the said deceased."

• How would I change this declaration to satisfy their requirement?

For the second point, I've left it blank because I'm the only executor.  This is the box that says
That I ________________________ have entered or am about to enter, upon possession and management of the deceased's estate as Executor foresaid along with the said __________[BIG EMPTY BOX]______________.

• Do I just fill the first line with my full name, and leave the second box blank?