Neighbour says I'm encroaching on their land

DRP

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

It's a totally straight boundary line and it's very clear to the most casual observer which bit is which (even without producing plans) and the plans do actually specify literally to the inch whose is whose (well mine certainly do). I was wondering whether the fact that it is so clear is down to this neighbour having ranted at a previous owner of this house and they had to settle it at that point and they are hoping to re-open proceedings now my house has a new owner).

I don't think this is the "real" thing at all. I think they wanted things to continue exactly as they were, but I obviously have my own way I want my house/garden (as any new owner would) and this is just the "line" they are using to try and put "the new owner in comply with them box" iyswim. Kite-flying to get me to do as they wish generally I suspect.

IS there a fence or wall or other feature? that the LR plan refers to or does the boundary go in a straight line between a corner of your house and his (or some other structure)?

Otherwise I don't see how the LR plan can 'literally' specify to the inch...

amibovvered

Lots of deed plans, particularly older ones, have measurements in feet and inches shown on them.

DRP

amibovvered wrote: »

Lots of deed plans, particularly older ones, have measurements in feet and inches shown on them.

really? i've never seen that.

Makes sense though.

lincroft1710

DRP wrote: »

really? i've never seen that.

Makes sense though.

I've seen literally hundreds of these old plans, with the measurements either on the plan or written in the conveyance thus "on the north side 31 feet and 5 inches, on the east side 84 feet and 3 inches, on the south side 32 feet feet and 6 inches, and on the west side. 85 feet 7 inches.

vectistim

lincroft1710 wrote: »

I've seen literally hundreds of these old plans, with the measurements either on the plan or written in the conveyance thus "on the north side 31 feet and 5 inches, on the east side 84 feet and 3 inches, on the south side 32 feet feet and 6 inches, and on the west side. 85 feet 7 inches.

Normally when I've seen things like that, it's had a caveat of 'or thereabouts' shoved after the measurements.

moneyistooshorttomention

G_M wrote: »

What Plans are you looking at?

Land Registry Plans won't show that level of detail.

I have plans from when the land was originally sold off for building on and they are very precise and much more so than the typical Land Registry entry. They state to the inch what I own and have passed through from first owner, through subsequent ones, through to me unaltered.

moneyistooshorttomention

DRP wrote: »

IS there a fence or wall or other feature? that the LR plan refers to

.

Yes there is.

There are no "or thereabouts" caveats of any description. There are exact measurements and no "weasel getout clause" words.

It's very very obvious exactly where the boundary is to the most casual observer and it's where the plans say it is.

I have been absolutely scrupulous about making sure I don't use any land I don't own. I only wish my neighbour had....they are a bit prone to "taking liberties" it would appear. I was warned that they like their own way and try to rule the roost...and suspect the "real" problem is that they've been used to previous owners falling in rather with what they want.

Land_Registry

A really interesting thread and not one which I can probably add too much to other than a general comment for other readers and a caveat around the precise measurements shown in deeds. The caveat is not intended to throw doubt on the OPs position but simply to flag up the possibility that even precise measurements on deed plans can be questioned.

Boundaries are notoriously difficult subjects to cover where neighbours disagree or are in dispute. The old adage re an 'englishman's (and welshman of course) home is his castle' still holds true and neighbours can often dispute the smallest of measurements or even teeny weeny parcels of land as a result.

We provide quite a bit of online guidance around boundaries from the very general type to the more specific from a wider registration perspective

Sections 4 and 5 of the latter guidance is especially relevant to understanding the legal boundary, which can be different from the physical boundary.

And the caveat I mention is simply that in my experience old deed plans will often show a precise measurement in imperial or metric measurement and these can often be extremely helpful in resolving issues around boundaries providing of course all parties agree to any interpretation.

However they, like any other plan, will provide only part of the story as the piece which is invariably lacking is a precise understanding of a) where the measurements were taken from and with what and b) the lie of the land at the time, namely gradients, contours, obstacles which may or may not of course still be in place. The most obvious issue is often around fence posts and whether the measurement was taken from the inside or outside of the post. Whilst how such measurements are taken has varied considerably over the years, from rods/chains in days of olde to the laser beams of today.

That is not of course to say that the OP is wrong or relying too heavily on old deed plans. It is simply a general observation that can sometimes help appreciate the value of such measurements. The broad picture the OP is taking is of course always recommended but much relies on both sides seeing the same picture is a dispute is to be avoided as the sole arbiter is often a court as demonstrated by the references to case law in the online guidance.

Our own title plans are of course not intended to show the exact position of the legal boundary and others have mentioned this in their posts. The title plan is created for a different purpose than that of the original deed plan so it is never a simple a case of deed plan v title plan. Section 6 of the latter guidance explains this further.

Again in my experience the position of the boundary is often clearly defined on the ground, especially where owners have emphasised the old adage by having for example a sound wall, hedge, or fence in place for many years. The vast majority of properties are clearly defined in this way but disputes can still arise particularly where the physical boundary is or has been changed at some stage.

Davesnave

Thanks to the Land Registry Rep for all that info which many will find useful, but I would still go for GM's tea & cake approach myself. I would listen politely to their side, even if I had no intention of giving an inch.

After all, even a neighbour who needs to be kept in their place, also has to be lived beside. Only in the most extreme circumstances should one resort to what psychologists might euphemistically call "strong self-maintaining behaviour." :cool:

In the country and parochial communities, one meets people who have been there for donkey's years.They hate change because it threatens the safe little world they have constructed throughout their petty little lives. Even growing a row of broad beans where the previous owner always grew seasonal dahlias & petunias may be enough to send them over the edge.

The best one can hope to do with these folk is humour them, then carry on exactly as you intended to do in the first place.

That's what I did.

Did it work? I'm not too sure yet, but the last time I was within speaking distance of my neighbour, he callled me a "f****ing b*st*rd," which was a definite improvement over the time before that.

I'm sure it's only a few years now till the next tea and cake.

moneyistooshorttomention

:rotfl::rotfl: Dave.

Well, they haven't called me any names yet.

Thankfully, I was warned what the neighbour concerned is like (several times) by another neighbour, so I wasn't totally unprepared for A.N. Attack of "I Must Have My Own Way" by them.:cool:

I am staying polite/calm/firm, though severely tempted to tell them where to get off and "mind their own business".

I have the feeling they aren't standing on very safe ground at all in talking about who owns what land somehow....and, if they think about it, they might just realise I know it....