Only freedom will do

misscousinitt

Renting out property is part of our long term solution too.

That's why we are saving for a deposit rather than selling our now MF house - we want to rent it out to help with new mortgage costs and then savings for the future - and of course a nest egg for when we retire.

MCI

AlexLK

edinburgher wrote: »

Real returns from stock markets are something like:

US 10%
UK 5%

Per annum since 1900.

There is definitely money to be made (and lost). As an example, yesterday was a fairly typical day where people got excited about something (in this case, the prospect of EU QE and US payroll figures). Our ISA went up by 75% of my after tax salary for the day. To me, that is interesting and worthwhile as an investment. That, and the ISA isn't even a year old yet! Don't get me wrong, there seem to be at least as many down days as up days, but I can imagine a point where months salaries are being gained (or lost) in a matter of hours.

Mebbe I'm just a gambler at heart

In some ways, the volatility feels similar to BTL folk investing with OPM. When it works in your favour, it's great. When it falls over, it's horrible

I see that type of investment as something to play with when there's a lot of money going spare, personally. However, everyone is different. 5-10% just wouldn't be worth it to me when I can find 30% profit in something else quite easily.


My parents are quite into putting money into lots of different investments, not risking too much initially then adding funds / taking them away when needs be. However, they are retired (apart from the properties) so have lots of time for this. At my age they were more interested in climbing the property ladder than any type of investment.

elantan wrote: »

I see BTL as part of the solution for us, just one property I reckon would be enough for us , don't want a lot of hassle etc but the £500 a month could be handy to boost the ISA and SIPP , won't be thinking of buying until the next recession though so will concentrate on ISA's and SIPP'S and paying off the mortgage just now

Very interesting that you're only interested in one property. Personally, I think with one you're getting the "hassle" of being a landlord with little reward.

AlexLK

gallygirl wrote: »

Whose ethics are you questioning you capitalist scum, investing in companies that exploit the workers to benefit the shareholders :rotfl:.

edinburgher wrote: »

Offaly hoity toity for a rent seeker today GG, aren't we?

After a rather bad morning, thanks for cheering me up. :rotfl:

edinburgher

I see that type of investment as something to play with when there's a lot of money going spare, personally. However, everyone is different. 5-10% just wouldn't be worth it to me when I can find 30% profit in something else quite easily.

Therein lies the rub for me. You may be able to find 30% profit in *something*, but I doubt that you can find 30% profit in *everything*. If you did, I doubt you'd be wasting your time posting with the likes of us mere mortals

I strongly suspect that your accountant would tell you that for every 30% profit, there are plenty of others that net nowhere near that much. For example, say you're selling antiques (random choice). You buy a beautiful vase for £2,000 from your stash of £5,000 and make a profit of £600. Great! But you didn't make 30%, you made 30% of the money invested/tied up. It would be more like 12% of your total 'pot'. There is no way that you can remain fully 'invested', or you'd have no cash flow and would struggle to sponsor the next profit.

One of the reasons that I invest is that I expect with time (and compound returns) to make 5-10% on *everything*.

In the benefits of a fair discussion, I freely admit that I'm talking about annual returns, you could potentially turn over your full 'pot' more than once a year.

But I can't get the idea out of my head that it's very unlikely that you're fully utilising your pot to get 30% at all times?

Thank you for a thought provoking discussion :beer:

Karmacat

Erm ... I'm in property ... that s*dding French apartment counts, I'm afraid. I've had it for 9 years, not counting the 2 years off plan, and every year its cost me between £2k and £4k :eek: as well as my 40% down payment, worst so-called investment I ever made!

At least its a holiday let - I'm not a hoity-toity rent seeker :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Ed, I love your mix of financial ambition and what seem to be your politics (erm, dare I say I identify with what my perception is of that?) That mix of financial ambition and formerly penniless well-educated working class? It describes me, anyway I'm probably extrapolating too far, simply from the BTL thing, apologies, but will post anyway

Secret_Saving_Squirrel

I think that people should do whatever they wish to make their money work for them. But I don't think everyone is suited to BTL. When I worked in the city a lot of my younger colleagues were renting from part time landlords who had busy full time jobs and they had terrible problems when anything went wrong as there could never get in touch with anyone to help. I do think that if you are going to be a landlord or lady, you should give it the time it needs and provide a real service to your tenants. Too many amateurs out there unfortunately.

edinburgher

Ed, I love your mix of financial ambition and what seem to be your politics (erm, dare I say I identify with what my perception is of that?) That mix of financial ambition and formerly penniless well-educated working class?

KC, if I ever need a publicist, you're getting the job

After a good think about money and class, I think it's fair to say this. I was raised in a middle class household where there was a big focus on education, a bit of a focus on spirituality, and next to no instruction in the ways of the world.

Where this fell down slightly was a lack of direction as to what the point of all this education was... I don't think it's unkind to say that neither of my parents had/have any particular aspirations of material success, although they have done very well for themselves over time.

In terms of money, we were decidedly working class. I'm from a big family, my parents switched careers several times and I'm sure we struggled at times. There was a lot of love, but I think they stretched themselves too thin, I don't think they really felt 'flush' until they were in their 50s.

I have been penniless more than once, most recently as the average clueless student who lived it up while failing to make a plan for his future Not all bad things end badly, however, if I hadn't ended up in debt I never would have discovered MSE (and eventually, my sense of financial purpose).

I now know that all I want are relatively simple things. Love, a family, good food and drink and somewhere warm to lay my head. I'm left cold when it comes to gadgets and gizmos, 'status symbols' and many of the things that my generation supposedly lusts after. It sometimes feels that what drives me now is the fear that, having discovered what I want, it will slip from my grasp.

Hence the focus on FI. The final salary money tree etc. is dead, every £ is one closer to a safe family life without material worry.

As for 'politics', I can find a place for most things in my world view, but there are some that don't sit so well. I understand that weapons and cigarettes will be made regardless of whether or not I don't invest in the companies that make them, I understand that not everyone can afford to buy a home... I suppose I'm a (lower case) socialist at heart and I still get angry every single time I see someone being taken advantage of.

Calfuray

edinburgher wrote: »

I understand that not everyone can afford to buy a home... I suppose I'm a (lower case) socialist at heart and I still get angry every single time I see someone being taken advantage of.

I see where you're coming from (especially with the prices in Glasgow/Edinburgh) but maybe that's why it's a good thing that MSE people are being landlords - at least we know they'll be fair and good?

Karmacat

Aww, thank you Ed! But you've just written your own brilliant statement and you've certainly got to a good place.

AlexLK

edinburgher wrote: »

Therein lies the rub for me. You may be able to find 30% profit in *something*, but I doubt that you can find 30% profit in *everything*. If you did, I doubt you'd be wasting your time posting with the likes of us mere mortals

I strongly suspect that your accountant would tell you that for every 30% profit, there are plenty of others that net nowhere near that much. For example, say you're selling antiques (random choice). You buy a beautiful vase for £2,000 from your stash of £5,000 and make a profit of £600. Great! But you didn't make 30%, you made 30% of the money invested/tied up. It would be more like 12% of your total 'pot'. There is no way that you can remain fully 'invested', or you'd have no cash flow and would struggle to sponsor the next profit.

One of the reasons that I invest is that I expect with time (and compound returns) to make 5-10% on *everything*.

In the benefits of a fair discussion, I freely admit that I'm talking about annual returns, you could potentially turn over your full 'pot' more than once a year.

But I can't get the idea out of my head that it's very unlikely that you're fully utilising your pot to get 30% at all times?

Thank you for a thought provoking discussion :beer:

And thank you for a thought provoking discussion. As it happens I am involved in the antiques trade.


My situation is exactly as you say, so likely not a 30% overall, more a 30% (sometimes (rarely) over 100%) each deal. As you say potentially I can turn over my 'pot' more than once per year (that wasn't close to happening) but there are also times when I lose money.


What money I do have (including this hypothetical pot) is tied up in my company for tax reasons, making me personally worth all of about a tank of diesel and 2 packets of chocolate Buttons.

Secret_Saving_Squirrel wrote: »

I think that people should do whatever they wish to make their money work for them. But I don't think everyone is suited to BTL. When I worked in the city a lot of my younger colleagues were renting from part time landlords who had busy full time jobs and they had terrible problems when anything went wrong as there could never get in touch with anyone to help. I do think that if you are going to be a landlord or lady, you should give it the time it needs and provide a real service to your tenants. Too many amateurs out there unfortunately.

Absolutely agree regarding part-time "landlords".