ParkingEye LBCCC

fedupwithitall

Hi everyone,

I have two problems with PPCs but one is different than the other so I hope I have followed correct etiquette by starting 2 threads.

I received a postal PCN from this company back in February 2013.

At the time the advice appeared to be to ignore all correspondence, which I did.

After a few letters and 2 from Debt Recovery, I received a Letter Before Action in July last year, which I also ignored.

I received nothing further until a few days ago. It is a Letter Before County Court Claim, the front of which is exactly the same as the previous LBA but the back of this one contains the information I have seen posted on LBCCC forum concerning the pre-action protocol etc and informing me (as also advised on that thread that they would!) that I am out of time to appeal.

I understand I must respond to this letter and also think I understand from the other thread that I should push for an appeal to POPLA.

Thank you for any help you can offer.

da_rule

1) The exact circumstances don't matter (sorry if that comes across as harsh). If you're lucky enough to get a POPLA code then no genuine pre-estimate of loss is your main argument (and wins every time, with other arguments thrown in).
2) It is always worth contacting the land owner and asking them to contact it.

I assume you have read the Newbies post and in particular the LBCC section as you seem aware of what you need to do.

P.S. I hope things have sorted them self out for your son.

fedupwithitall

"The exact circumstances don't matter (sorry if that comes across as harsh"

Yes, harsh but true I know! I will get on with the acknowledgement letter following the advice in the LBCCC thread, and try to figure out who the landowner is!

Thanks for the quick reply.

da_rule

Hopefully the hotel will know. They may even be the landowner.

Coupon-mad

You don't need the 'landowner' you need the complaint to go to whoever contracted PE there. That's likely to be - the Hotel!

Do not admit who was driving nor any fault on the part of the driver. Just complain about the harassment and ask that the charge is cancelled, say you were thinking about using the Hotel this Summer for a family meet-up but are loath to do so now (that sort of thing).

And keep batting the LBCCC replies back to PE, follow the LBCCC thread because there is a suggested second letter in that thread, which I wrote for a chap who got his case rewound back to POPLA stage in fact (rare). Don't let PE have the last word, reply reply reply!

fedupwithitall

Thank you everyone who has responded so far, especially Coupon-Mad.

I have trawled through so many threads now, including the Newbies and have come up with my draft response to PE, using a template that I think originated from CM but may now bear no relation to! Any constructive criticism welcomed. It has to be sent by 1pm tomorrow, eekk!


Dear Sir/Madam,

PCN number

As the registered keeper, I acknowledge receipt of your“Letter Before County Court Claim”. I do not accept this letter is compliant with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct at all for the following reasons, it:

1) fails to set out who the claimant actually is

2) fails to set out a clear summary of the facts

3) fails to give an explanation of the financial losses claimed, instead using a generic sentence in order to justify the extortionate charge (be advised that I am aware that your standing charge of £100.00 has consistently been held not to bea genuine pre-estimate of loss and you are therefore put to strict proof)

4) fails to detail the main documents you intend to rely on in court (you may add relevanta dditional documents once proceedings have begun, however, as you are wellaware, you are required to detail those which you currently rely on, before proceedings are started)

5) claims to be open to ADR but insists POPLA can no longer be used, which I am aware iscompletely untrue as I am aware of other cases where you have issued POPLA codes way after your self-imposed time limit of 28days. Additionally, POPLA have also confirmed a code can be issued by the Private Parking Company at anytime.

I therefore wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis

1) Your Notices to Keeper failed to satisfy therequirements of POFA 2012 and therefore keeper liability cannot be established. Since you claim compliance, you are put to strict proof to evidence that those requirements were in fact satisfied

2) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimateof loss to your company or the landowner and you are put to strict proof in this regard

3) Your signage at the relevant time did not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract. Since you claim compliance, you are therefore put to strict proof to evidence that it did in fact comply with requirements

4) Your use of ANPR cameras did not comply with BPACode of Practice at the relevant time. Since you claim compliance, you are put to strict proof to evidence that all requirements were satisfied at the relevant time

5) You are not the landowner and do not have thestanding to offer contracts nor therefore to bring a claim for breach or fortrespass and you are put to strict proof in this regard

In the event you refuse my appeal and/or refuse to issue a POPLA code, be advised:

1) I reserve the right add further grounds on which to rely once I have received confirmation of the claim against me and the documents you intend to rely on to support your claims

2) In the event that you refuse my request tosubmit to a POPLA appeal. It is not possible for me to comply with myobligations under the Practice Direction you referred me to until such timethat you have set out your case against me, including the main documents you will rely on

3) In the event you refuse my request for anappeal, my full response to your claim will therefore be issued within 30 days of receipt of the required information from you.

I now request you either cancel this charge and confirm this in writing, or issue a specific,detailed rejection letter.

If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

1) the legal basis of your charge as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your Notice to Keeper failed to make the basis of the charge clear, referring to alleged Keeper liability for a“Parking event.” As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

2) if alleging breach of contract, (which your Letter Before County Court Claim now alleges) with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Merely referring to your company accounts does not explain in any way the specific alleged losses. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

3) if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

4) if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking andservice provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VATi nvoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which isnot recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188(AP476) 21/2/2014).

Please be advised that:

(a) I consider I have now acknowledged your claimed “Letter Before County Court Claim” within the time period allowed and I categorically reject your contention that it is compliant with the requirements under the Practice Direction as set out above. For this reason, I now expect you to treat this response as an appeal against thischarge, as also set out above.

(b) Any obfuscation on your part,such as alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage,will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as I consider this will be a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

(c) Should you reject myc hallenge I require you to provide a POPLA code to allow for an independenta ppeal. Since POPLA was set up specifically to deal with private parking disputes, I consider this the most appropriate form of ADR available. Failure to issue such a code and/or refusal to accept this appeal will be evidence that you are failing to comply with the requirement for ADR as set out in the Practice Direction.

(d) Further, if you insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs in the event I succeed in defending this claim.

Please ensure your response addresses my specific points set out above.

Coupon-mad

Yep that looks good and they will then reply with their usual bluster of pages pretending they always win, etc. Search this forum for 'PE seven pages' and you should see a preview of their template reply!

Also keep an eye on this outcome of course, it was the PE 'test' Court case today:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4953362

Explained here:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/judges-wising-up-to-parkingeye.html

fedupwithitall

Thanks again Coupon-Mad, what would we all do without you?!

Redx

in your copy and paste above I noticed a few formatting mistakes, which can happen IF you copied and pasted from word onto here (which is why I always advocate using notepad first, then copy and paste from a saved notepad txt file instead)

if we assume those errors like c hallenge and i nvoice are in your original, please find and correct them before sending

if its due to copy and paste from word onto here (and the original hasnt got any errors) then thats fine - ignore this post

it may seem OCD, but best to get things perfect, or almost !

fedupwithitall

Thanks, yes it's just a formatting issue.

fedupwithitall

Well folks, nothing as yet from PE regarding my letter above, is that usual? And I noticed the decision is in from the Cambridge case, cant believe that, what a shame an appeal is unlikely. I guess PE will attempt to rely on that in every case now too despite its obvious limitations, I'll keep updating as and when I receive anything.