Independence?

jj_5

mountainofdebt wrote: »

But why vote for something when there are so many unknowns.

What would the currency would the Scots ? All the main political parties have said that it wouldn't be Sterling and if they went for the Euro - well that would be akin to swapping Westminster for Berlin

What about EU membership? General consenus seems to be that wouldn't be an automatic right.

Personally I think there's a strong danger that people will vote yes simply as a swipe against David Cameron and not think about the law of unintended consequences.

Mountainofdebt you raise some valid questions, it's nice to discuss this with someone without it resulting in personal attacks etc.

Worst case scenario on currency is that the main parties actually aren't lying and so we'd use the pound without a currency union.

The only impartial source I've seen quoted on the matter is Professor Young. He said the logic used by Osbourne etc was flawed:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/30/scottish-independence-currency-union-subterfuge_n_5239073.html

On the EU if there were problems gaining entry, or if the terms of entry didn't suit Scotland we could always join EFTA which offers access to the single market without having to pay EU membership fees.

http://www.efta.int/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association

mountainofdebt

jj_5 wrote: »

Mountainofdebt you raise some valid questions, it's nice to discuss this with someone without it resulting in personal attacks etc.

Worst case scenario on currency is that the main parties actually aren't lying and so we'd use the pound without a currency union.

The only impartial source I've seen quoted on the matter is Professor Young. He said the logic used by Osbourne etc was flawed:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/30/scottish-independence-currency-union-subterfuge_n_5239073.html

On the EU if there were problems gaining entry, or if the terms of entry didn't suit Scotland we could always join EFTA which offers access to the single market without having to pay EU membership fees.

http://www.efta.int/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association

But how could you use the £ ....I mean if Scotland became a separate entity then what 'right' would Scotland have to use it ?

Actually the saddest thing I've seen in this whole independence debate (and I admit I've not really followed it) is something that was doing the rounds on facebook....basically it was saying that if Scotland voted no then Scotland would be considered to be a laughing stock and how could they sing 'The Flower of Scotland'.

Sometimes its braver to say no than to say yes for fear of looking cowardly.

Weird thing is I'm on my way up to Scotland for a charity event on the weekend where all the money raised is staying in Scotland and I know there are alot of non Scottish people coming up for the same reason.

scotsbob

mountainofdebt wrote: »

What about EU membership? General consenus seems to be that wouldn't be an automatic right.

That is correct but then no country has ever had an automatic right.

However when Croatia, Latvia, Estonia etc all gained their independence they had no difficulty gaining EU membership.

Less than ten years ago Malta and Cyprus gained membership, I doubt Scotland would be turned away.

Buzby

If the Vote is No, and England votes in its own referendum on EU membership, it is well known that Scottish votes have no relevance - so we will find ourselves out of the EU. So what is the difference?

With a YES vote we're not strong-armed out by England, and irrespective of how the EU handle Scotland's application (quickly of slowly) there is at least more certainty of continuing membership.

bigheadxx

mountainofdebt wrote: »

But how could you use the £ ....I mean if Scotland became a separate entity then what 'right' would Scotland have to use it ?

Actually the saddest thing I've seen in this whole independence debate (and I admit I've not really followed it) is something that was doing the rounds on facebook....basically it was saying that if Scotland voted no then Scotland would be considered to be a laughing stock and how could they sing 'The Flower of Scotland'.

Sometimes its braver to say no than to say yes for fear of looking cowardly.

Weird thing is I'm on my way up to Scotland for a charity event on the weekend where all the money raised is staying in Scotland and I know there are alot of non Scottish people coming up for the same reason.

Scotland will use GBP in some form. If it goes for sterlingisation, unofficially using the currency, it will have little credibility. Interestingly, this could see the end of Scottish issued bank notes as the Bank of England may disallow it.

zagubov

scotsbob wrote: »

That is correct but then no country has ever had an automatic right.

However when Croatia, Latvia, Estonia etc all gained their independence they had no difficulty gaining EU membership.

Less than ten years ago Malta and Cyprus gained membership, I doubt Scotland would be turned away.

Absolutely; lets see - its accepted three former postwar fascist dictatorships, twelve former communist dictatorships (ten from the Warsaw pact) or their seccesionist components, two divided cities (Berlin and Trieste) a country unrecognised by the EU's biggest economy, and an island occupied by a foreign army.

So would it let go of a country with the combined population of Luxembourg, Malta, Slovenia, Estonia, Cyprus. 10 % of Germany's oil (hello there Mr Putin) and about 25% of Spain's fish, plus coal, gas, uranium (nobody remembers this out loud), 1/12 of the world's laptops etc, 5 of the top universities and one of the world's top four per-capita producers of cited scientific papers. A solvent, educated, developed, literate, north European, capitalist, peace-loving, long-standing multi-party democracy - if you think that an expansionist outfit like the EU will let Scotland drift outside for even a nanosecond you need a checkup from the neck up.

bigheadxx wrote: »

Scotland will use GBP in some form. If it goes for sterlingisation, unofficially using the currency, it will have little credibility. Interestingly, this could see the end of Scottish issued bank notes as the Bank of England may disallow it.

Or they may not. There were discussions some time ago (God knows when) where permission was sought for Scottish euronotes to be issued if the UK adopted the euro.

mountainofdebt

I actually listened to a radio drama a few weeks ago and it where Scotland had voted for independence and it centred round a meeting with Cameron and Salmond following the vote and I have to admit it made me feel quite sad.

Sad that the Scots don't believe that being part of the UK is something special - and yes I know you and the English don't get on but to be honest there are mindless idiots on both sides of the border that could do with their heads knocking together

It's a pity really as I think the vote will be yes if only as a swipe to Cameron when as a previous poster has said devolution max would seem the perfect solution

jj_5

mountainofdebt wrote: »

But how could you use the £ ....I mean if Scotland became a separate entity then what 'right' would Scotland have to use it ?

Actually the saddest thing I've seen in this whole independence debate (and I admit I've not really followed it) is something that was doing the rounds on facebook....basically it was saying that if Scotland voted no then Scotland would be considered to be a laughing stock and how could they sing 'The Flower of Scotland'.

Sometimes its braver to say no than to say yes for fear of looking cowardly.

Weird thing is I'm on my way up to Scotland for a charity event on the weekend where all the money raised is staying in Scotland and I know there are alot of non Scottish people coming up for the same reason.

And you are most welcome, and will be after September aswell

On your £ question, the pound is a fully tradeable currency which means anyone can use it.

Disadvantages are we don't have a lender of last resort if we were to work things in this way. Many other countries have managed it successfully however, I believe Hong Kong currently use the U.S dollar in the same way and have done for years.

jj_5

mountainofdebt wrote: »

I actually listened to a radio drama a few weeks ago and it where Scotland had voted for independence and it centred round a meeting with Cameron and Salmond following the vote and I have to admit it made me feel quite sad.

Sad that the Scots don't believe that being part of the UK is something special - and yes I know you and the English don't get on but to be honest there are mindless idiots on both sides of the border that could do with their heads knocking together

It's a pity really as I think the vote will be yes if only as a swipe to Cameron when as a previous poster has said devolution max would seem the perfect solution

Haha, posted at the same time:D

This is not an anti-English thing Mountainofdebt. We are just, like the English in many ways, fed up of the way Westminster has been run.

Some of my family are English and there are a lot of English MSP's up here campaigning for it (Scottish Green Party etc)

zagubov

jj_5 wrote: »

Haha, posted at the same time:D

This is not an anti-English thing Mountainofdebt. We are just, like the English in many ways, fed up of the way Westminster has been run.

Some of my family are English and there are a lot of English MSP's up here campaigning for it (Scottish Green Party etc)

That's a most important point! There's nothing anti-English about the independence movement. The only aspect of the union that needs changing is the combined parliament part. Everything else works well, or could work well. England could probably benefit from making decisions about running its own affairs without input from Scottish MPs and Scotland could do likewise.

I live in England now with a lovely English wife and kids who I'm immensely proud of, so I've no current personal stake in this.

Devo Max would have been a much better choice IMHO, but Cameron knows best for Scotland apparently, so it's not on the table. There you go. Just leaves the choice of reminding Cameron that on Scottish matters Scotland knows best.