Noise/Sound-Reducing Windows (Glazing)

Fizzymartini

I'm purchasing an unmodernised flat within 50m of mainline railway and overground tube lines (the tracks snake around, virtually surround-sound!). So, I'm looking to replace the knackered single-glazed windows and patio door with acoustic double-glazing.

I've been researching furiously, and it looks like local councils recommend sealed double glazing with laminated glass (Pilkington Optiphon or SGG Stadip Silence), and NO trickle vents. For example:

• Birmingham Council recommends 8.8mm acoustic laminated glass - 20mm cavity - 12.8mm acoustic laminated glass
• Sefton Council recommends 6mm glass – 10-20mm cavity – 10.8mm acoustic laminated glass, or 8mm glass – 10-20mm cavity – 8.8mm acoustic laminated glass
• Brent Council recommends 8.4mm acoustic laminated glass - 16mm cavity - 6mm acoustic laminated glass/10mm glass

...so, er, lots of options :eek: But these were and were location-specific, and most were recommended to cut out road noise... which is a different frequency to trains? Does anyone know if the specs are different for buildings near railways?

Does anyone have any experience with acoustic-specfic glazing, and what did you get? I've also heard of AGC Thermobel Phonibel and Viracon Saflex SilentGlass, but no idea if they are comparable to the other two, more well-known, brands.

I want to get some idea of specifics before ringing round for quotes, as I'd like to be well-informed going in, and don't want to be taken for a ride. But I have no idea where to start

I_have_spoken

TBH, I think you're onto a non-starter to significantly reduce train noise which is low-frequency in nature.

Peeps living near railway lines have to spend a few weeks just getting used to it and eventually you don't notice.

In my last house, I wanted to block out kiddies shouting/dogs barking type noise and used DG with a laminated sheets of different thickness and large air gap; it does make a difference.

That said, I lived in a London flat that was right by the line into Waterloo East and the building shook when a goods train went past...

Fizzymartini

I_have_spoken wrote: »

TBH, I think you're onto a non-starter to significantly reduce train noise which is low-frequency in nature.

Peeps living near railway lines have to spend a few weeks just getting used to it and eventually you don't notice.

In my last house, I wanted to block out kiddies shouting/dogs barking type noise and used DG with a laminated sheets of different thickness and large air gap; it does make a difference.

That said, I lived in a London flat that was right by the line into Waterloo East and the building shook when a goods train went past...

Interesting, OK; thanks. Do you think looking into glazing that's specifically branded acoustic insulation (Optiphon, Standip Silence, etc.) is a pointless expense then, and that any double glazing (or secondary glazing) should potentially make as much of a difference to the low frequency noise of trains/tubes?

Furts

Two suggestions for you to consider.

First, with upvc, a lot of noise is transmitted trough the plastic profiles. This is not surprising for all that exists between you and the railway noise would be perhaps five hollow sections of very thin plastic, To deaden sound mass is required and a hollow upvc profile has no mass. Timber would be a better material for this.

Second, the Building Regulations are improved on windows from April. Try not to set a specification for windows that will soon be obsolete.

Hope this helps.

freezspirit

I remember watching an old grand design where the home was near/ next to train line and something about triple grazing or quad glazing but can't remember if it was for heat insulation or sound.

gamston

30yrs ago I lived in a house where we had Everest secondary wooden/ali glazing, the gap between outer glass to inner glass was 3", with the secondary glazing closed it really did shut out the noise of cars and children
if I was in an area where there was a lot of noise I would look at double glazing & secondary glazing = 3 sets of glazing
with these upvc profiles it may be worth filling them with sound deadening spray can foam

Furts

gamston wrote: »

with these upvc profiles it may be worth filling them with sound deadening spray can foam

My suggestion is to be careful if doing this. The profiles are hollow and free draining. Expanding foam could easily block these profiles - the rain will back up and end up somewhere.

tired_dad

going from single glazed to upvc double will surely make a massive difference to the noise.

I would have thought that was the most cost effective solution.

I would advise speaking to neighbours to find out what has and has not worked.

Fizzymartini

Furts wrote: »

Two suggestions for you to consider.

First, with upvc, a lot of noise is transmitted trough the plastic profiles. This is not surprising for all that exists between you and the railway noise would be perhaps five hollow sections of very thin plastic, To deaden sound mass is required and a hollow upvc profile has no mass. Timber would be a better material for this.

Second, the Building Regulations are improved on windows from April. Try not to set a specification for windows that will soon be obsolete.

Hope this helps.

Thanks - I was not aware of either of these two things!

I worry about the maintenance of timber frames, particularly being in a higher-floor flat. Would aluminium be a better bet? Shame about the cost factor

I tried to research the new building regulations coming into effect in April, but couldn't find anything useful. Does this mean I ought to wait until April to get the windows done, or just ensure I get a builder/glazer who will ensure whatever they fit will adhere to the upcoming codes?

Furts

Fizzymartini wrote: »

Thanks - I was not aware of either of these two things!

I worry about the maintenance of timber frames, particularly being in a higher-floor flat. Would aluminium be a better bet? Shame about the cost factor

I tried to research the new building regulations coming into effect in April, but couldn't find anything useful. Does this mean I ought to wait until April to get the windows done, or just ensure I get a builder/glazer who will ensure whatever they fit will adhere to the upcoming codes?

I am guessing the more chambers you have in the pvcu profile the better the sound reduction, but this will be marginal.

Aluminium windows will be profile extrusions so I doubt there will be much difference to pvcu.

My intuition is the details you have found are out of date. Currently for meeting the Regulations it is 4-20-4 for the glass, gap, glass. The gap is the insulation, with the glass trying to conduct away the heat.

Triple glazing ought to help because you are introducing more weight to deaden the sound. In particular if one of these panes was laminated. IIRR there were concerns that double glazing could resonate or amplify sound - this was resolved by one of the panes being a different thickness or construction.

This is all moving into specialist knowledge. I would wait until the new Regulations are clear and established. Then your ideal approach would be... "what meets the current Regulations and also will give me an element of sound deadening."

Hope this helps.

Johnandabby

Fizzymartini wrote: »

• Birmingham Council recommends 8.8mm acoustic laminated glass - 20mm cavity - 12.8mm acoustic laminated glass
• Sefton Council recommends 6mm glass – 10-20mm cavity – 10.8mm acoustic laminated glass, or 8mm glass – 10-20mm cavity – 8.8mm acoustic laminated glass
• Brent Council recommends 8.4mm acoustic laminated glass - 16mm cavity - 6mm acoustic laminated glass/10mm glass

The key thing here is that the inner and outer panes of glass are different thicknesses to reduce sound transfer. Main reason why laminated glass is used for one pane. If a glazing company doesn't offer you different thicknesses then they don't understand what you're asking for, so go elsewhere.

Projects that I've worked on with significant noise issues have used 4/12/4mm glazing units with 295mm air gap and then a 6mm inner pane. None have ever used any 'acoustic specific glazing', and the acoustic consultants have never put this forward as an option. Read from that what you will...

Don't forget about ventilation - pretty pointless spending lots of money on expensive glazing units, to then put in standard trickle vents and a clear air path for noise. You can get acoustic vents if you need them.