unfair cessation fee on Talkmobile

pyrwo

I will attempt with the text below to clear some mist about the technical side, satisfy some curiosity and maybe stir of a crime seasoning.

Apologies if I misled in some way bysaying “I have made the international calls”. Probably I should have said “internationalcalls were made from my phone” and add “according to clauses in theT&C and as I feel is right, I am liable of paying those call charges”

Please forget for a moment that in my previous statements I said “3G USB dongle ” and assume I have said “nokia phone(1st generation incapable of internet connectivity)”. So no transfer of data and no mobile internet over the SIM, no tethering. Calls only. With a simple nokia and an old computer connected together via cable or Bluetooth I have effectively achieved the functionality of a VoIP GSM gateway device. Voice calls through the nokia can be made from the PC. The PC is connected to the home broadband. VoIP calls destined for the home PC can be forwarded/routed through the nokia and terminated to a number dialled from the nokia by the PC.

The savings logic that motivated met o set this up -> my old grand mother (who let say lives in a distant Papua NewGuinea) could call me or my brother on our UK mobile phones for the competitive international rate of 20 pence per minute. And in a calendar month she would make 200 minutes worth £40. But instead she makes free VoIP calls to my home PC and then the PC routes the calls to mine or my brother’s UK mobile. That way for 200min she pays nothing and I pay Talkmobile £7.70.

This is how it was. The Talkmobile itemised billing for the past 19 months and up to the excessive usage shows that only two UK mobile numbers have been dialled, my mobile phone which is always in my pocket plus one other.

My motives are purely economical. No deliberate action against Talkmobile and no intention to defraud them. I havealways paid my monthly bill which until the last one was always £7.70 as nocalls were made outside the included talk plan allowance. I feel it is only rightI pay the incurred call charges as they were made from my nokia. And the question whether I would have paid the bill if it was 6K – ouch, pierced throughmy good citizen moral side.

Obviously the system I have created was not as untouchable and flawless as I thought. I had various strong passwords to secure the VoIP side, the access to the PC and the software was programmed to dial only the two UK mobile numbers mentioned above. The international numbers could not have been dialled without the intentional and aimed human intervention from outside. Software logs on the PC show the same calls as on the Talkmobile bill. And the cyber crime I have read about in the newspapers and on the net hit me. Yes, it really happened to me. Now reading Internet security bulletins and articles makes me ask myself why I have not done more in this direction as checking those call report logs more often and applying security updates or upgrades.


My current thoughts and questionmarks: (or weird thinking aloud)
Unintentionally or due to negligence I have breached the T&C by allowing “fraudulent or improper use of your mobile phone number” or “in connection with a criminal offence ”. Maybe something about a GSM gateway clause too.
Fraud is a crime and Wikipedia says is “a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain”
Talkmobile has operational team andprobably with a help from “fraud detection agencies” analysed the calls and found suspected fraudulent use.
On what ground can be concluded a suspected fraud? The operator most likely does not know much about my home setup and has the itemised calls list. After analyses on the list probably can be concluded surge of international calls in a short period of time to different countries, very uncharacteristic behaviour. Can an international phone number bring information for committed fraud?
“Suspected”? If it is “suspected”, has it actually been committed?
What are the evidences of fraud?
Have I been accused of committing a crime?
Have I been charged with committing a crime?
Is it a fraud or the operator just had the mechanism to detect the bill might go out of control and decided to cut it?(What will it take and how much to make them show the cards?)

The third party (the hacking party)that made the calls might have committed fraud in those calls.
In the described course of events, have I committed fraud (the crime)?
Have I done a crime against Talkmobile? How have I defrauded Talkmobile?
Who is the victim of the suspected fraud? (a fourth party | me | Talkmobile?)
If a crime has been done how am I involved in it? (accessory, complicit… principal,accomplice… somehow else)
What is my guilt if unintentionally,not deliberately or through negligence I have aided a crime?
Is breaching the T&C with the operator a crime?
Somehow the focus has moved from unfair fees on unrelated mobile contract to suspected commitment of crimes.
According the T&C incircumstances where fraud is suspected the operator has right to disconnect/bar my mobile device.
I have two accounts but have I got 1 or 2 contract agreements with the operator?
In the T&C is always referredas “this agreement” singular form, “your mobile device” singular form.

Thanks everybody so far for the opinions and provoking my thoughts. Hopefully they have been entertaining enough.

pyrwo

I allowed my mobile phone to beused, I shared it with relatives. Similarly tethering is sharing the mobile broadband data. Well, in the T&C I could not find the word tethering but probably it would be a breach under
"4.4. Certain uses of the Services are prohibited and not included in your Tariff. Examples of prohibited uses include without limitationthe following; illegal internet based streaming services, non Talkmobile voice or video services over the internet, peer-to-peer file sharing, redirecting television signals for viewing on mobile devices."
So it is possible to share mobile broadband data wirelessly(viaWiFi) by turning on tethering on a smartphone and if you like you can put aWiFi access password/key. And is it possible someone to hack that password? That IT student 3 neighbourhood doors away. And what does that someone do with the service on his disposal. Sends few 1000s spam messages tricking people into buying fake Viagra. And for that batch of emails the amount of data is unnoticeable. What is the chance of the real fraud been detected?

redux

Never mind the over-elaborate method or explanation

As I said before, wholesale rates to UK mobiles are now below a penny a minute, and some retail rates not much more. So anyone with internet access could calll your UK mobile for those sort of rates, without any of your extra infrastructure needed.

In fact, it's actually possible to find a VoIP provider offering free calls to UK mobiles, paid for with credit earned in other ways, including incoming calls.

As I also said before, I think your best hope is pay up the costs so far and negotiate away the contract's early termination charges. I don't see you aiming in that direction at the moment.

Herongull

The problem is that your system makes no economic sense.

You can buy a cheap smartphone for next to nothing these days and install Viber, Skype or some other Voip app. Then your granny can phone anytime you via the internet without it costing anything.

With your system, you would have to be plugged into your old PC or within Bluetooth range.

So why would anyone do that? Then it get's hacked by a third party and lots of data is mysteriously consumed.

So mobile company believe you were up to something. They don't have to prove this against reasonable doubt as the police would in a fraud trial. It is a contractual thing so they only have to show this on the balance of probabilities.

grumbler

Herongull wrote: »

The problem is that your system makes no economic sense.

I can be wrong, but I start thinking that the system allowed people from abroad making UK mobile calls from the UK mobile connected to the PC to other UK mobiles.

Even if so, I don't see why the network can be unhappy with this if all airtime used gets paid for.

pyrwo

Some more off topic technical elaboration:

grumbler wrote: »

I can be wrong, but I start thinking that the system allowed people from abroad making UK mobile calls from the UK mobile connected to the PC to other UK mobiles.

The system was mainly used from authorised people abroad to make calls from UK mobile 1(the Talkmoble account) to UK mobile 2 (O2 mobile in my pocket) and I was paying the Talkmobile bill. But it can be configured to authorise people (from abroad or not) to make calls from UK mobile 1 to any destination including to abroad. And that is what the hacker did.

Herongull wrote: »

With your system, you would have to be plugged into your old PC or within Bluetooth range.

Not of much importance but I have a feeling you have not yet grasped it technically. I do not have to be next to the PC. I with my O2 mobile can be miles away from my home and get the call as long as I have even slight mobile reception. No data is used whatsoever. My granny makes a VoIP call to my home PC, my home PC using the attached to it nokia (with the Talkmobile SIM inside) calls my pocket O2 mobile and I speak to my granny.

redux wrote: »

As I said before, wholesale rates to UK mobiles are now below a penny a minute, and some retail rates not much more. So anyone with internet access could calll your UK mobile for those sort of rates, without any of your extra infrastructure needed.

In fact, it's actually possible to find a VoIP provider offering free calls to UK mobiles, paid for with credit earned in other ways, including incoming calls.

Probably I can argue how cheaper through my mechanism is compared to average retail international call provider and VoIP rates to UK mobile. But OK, I see now. It looks as it does not make such an economical sense anymore, since now you can have internet and the free Skype/Viber on your mobile. It made the economical sense for me at the time I created it and until the breach I was very happy with it. I had other more secondary reasons to do it as: not depending on international calls providers who change rates at will; reliability; convenience; control; freedom; avoid the frequent searching for new or competitive call provider and then teaching granny how to use new software (or new calling mechanisms through callbacks used by some call providers - old people learn slowly, do not remember for long and a change of the Skype interface after update makes them lost). I was happy with my system and still think it served me well and reliably.
I have kept the old car that might consume more fuel and never left me on the road and I felt nice in it so did not feel the need to search for a new one.

pyrwo

And now back on to the topic of the tread:

redux wrote: »

As I also said before, I think your best hope is pay up the costs so far and negotiate away the contract's early termination charges. I don't see you aiming in that direction at the moment.

I have already paid the incurred cost and the termination fees on both contracts. I feel I need to negotiate return of the termination fees on the second account by arguing they are unfair.

Herongull wrote: »

So mobile company believe you were up to something. They don't have to prove this against reasonable doubt as the police would in a fraud trial. It is a contractual thing so they only have to show this on the balance of probabilities.

I have breached the T&C, unintentionally or not, and the operator has the right bar me and charge termination fees.
So it is a contractual thing. It will be not talking about crime but talking about T&C of the contract.

Course of events:
They stopped the two accounts, said I have breached the T&C and want to cut all ties with me.
To customer services I have expressed the cessation fees (the termination fees) on the second account are not fair because it is a separate contract agreement (separate T&C) different from those breached.
They have replied “due to the nature of the breach on the first account, all ties with Talkmobile are cut and the breach applies to any associated accounts, i.e. any account in your name”.
Next I asked what the nature of the breach is and their reply contained the clauses posted earlier about the suspected fraud.
No other communication between me and the operator other than the above so far.

What is the argument?
They say the accounts are two and are associated because both are on my name. And effectively due to this association the breach on the first agreement reflected the second account and I have to pay the termination fees on the second account too.
I say the accounts are two but are not associated. If they want to stop the service on the second account it is their decision and not because I have breached the second account contract, so no termination charge should be charged.
So it comes to whether the two accounts are associated in the way they say or not. If we are talking contractual T&Cs -> no term “associated account” exist and no clause states a breach will apply to another account in my name.

So I am thinking in my next step contacting the operator I will:
1) Begin with similarly to what redux advised that any abuse or fraud was not deliberate: “some use that occurred was inadvertent, and at my cost, and incurring this unforeseen cost shows I wasn't out to defraud them or a third party” and add the second SIM account has not been used in such way.
2) State my position that the two accounts are both on my name but should not be considered associated in a way where a breach on one agreement should apply to another account.
3) State that if they want to stop the service on the second account I would understand their position but will not be because I have breached the second account.
4) Ask about their arguments why the accounts are considered associated in such way.

They may agree and give back the termination fee and it all end here.
Or we do not agree, and next step probably is going to higher authority as the Ombudsman which is the independent arbitrary service.

pyrwo

Herongull wrote: »

, but I can see why they are suspicious. I think they believe that you were using it to defraud them in some way and they don't believe what you say about the hacker.

I have not explained or discussed anything about my system or hacker with the operator. And in my opinion the operator does not have any technical information about my home setup. They just detected unusually excessive peak of international calls made from my mobile.

gjchester

pyrwo wrote: »

I have not explained or discussed anything about my system or hacker with the operator. And in my opinion the operator does not have any technical information about my home setup. They just detected unusually excessive peak of international calls made from my mobile.

And that's all they have to do. In TalkMobiles opinion you've broken the terms of the contract, and they are closing the account. They don't need details, and their technical department may already know a lot of them from the data they collect.


The account is being closed due to your actions and hence payment due. The key I guess is the link or not between the accounts.


Regardless how you think the accounts are set up you need to try and work it out with TalkMobile, , you may think if you've reached a impasse, in which case then the next step is to complain to an ombudsman (CISAS I think). However you need to try and resolve this with Talkmobile first, if you simply go to CISAS without trying all options with TalkMobile, the ombudsman will simply refer you back to TalkMobile.

grumbler

gjchester wrote: »

And that's all they have to do. In TalkMobiles opinion you've broken the terms of the contract,

What terms? My understanding is that they were (from their point of view) just usual calls from a mobile phone (dialed by a computer).

Re the 'volume', we have heard of much bigger volumes that providers were happy to charge their customers for.