Effect of Scottish Independence Vote

TCA

incandescent wrote: »

That is truly below the belt TCA. My wages have SHRUNK in real terms for several years. As have most peoples. This year my wages finally grew by more than inflation. According to the data that is true of most other people too.

And I have every bloody right to be concerned about my income and my ability to provide for my family.

You seem very happy to criticise other people for not wanting to become poorer or lose their jobs. You don't have much empathy for your fellow Scots, do you.

It's not all about you. My empathy is with the thousands of Scots and long term unemployed who have fared no better at the hands of successive UK governments. You keep harping on about your wages shrinking in real terms. You're lucky you've had a wage. You are of course entitled to be concerned about your ability to provide for your family, but you seem ignorant to the plights of others, which just happens to include my family.

Self-determination gives an ability to raise money and spend it where it's needed most. It just isn't good enough from Westminster. I see people queueing at food banks every day and it makes me sick to my stomach. Things are getting worse instead of better. You appear to think it's the opposite because some businesses are doing a bit better, the government stats have improved and your salary is finally beating inflation. You can have your own quote back "Well whoopdy do for you".

incandescent

TCA wrote: »

It's not all about you. My empathy is with the thousands of Scots and long term unemployed who have fared no better at the hands of successive UK governments. You keep harping on about your wages shrinking in real terms. You're lucky you've had a wage. You are of course entitled to be concerned about your ability to provide for your family, but you seem ignorant to the plights of others, which just happens to include my family.

Self-determination gives an ability to raise money and spend it where it's needed most. It just isn't good enough from Westminster. I see people queueing at food banks every day and it makes me sick to my stomach. Things are getting worse instead of better. You appear to think it's the opposite because some businesses are doing a bit better, the government stats have improved and your salary is finally beating inflation. You can have your own quote back "Well whoopdy do for you".

As I pointed out earlier, UK (and Scottish) unemployment is actually lower than almost much every other European competitor. Yes, it would be great if unemployment was zero, but you need to demonstrate why independence would make all these things better.

And you just plain haven't.

Worse instead of better? Can you actually prove that?

Unemployment is significantly lower than it was. Wages are up. We are still part of the 6th largest economy in the world. Wages here are very high compared to almost every other country on the planet. It might not be perfect, but as I said, I have absolutely no reason to believe independence won't make things worse and every reason to believe it will.

In the mean time, I will not apologise for looking after my own family and demanding a say in my own bloody citizenship and nationality.

TCA

rpc wrote: »

I'm sure most people want better public services. But few are prepared to pay for them when asked.

In principle, I would pay more but then I object to the large inefficiencies of the state and wouldn't agree to pay for the waste.

I see your point exactly. What I would say is that under the current way things work the UK government seem to be able to throw money at everything with nothing changing. I honestly don't know what they could do with the welfare system. It's grown to such proportions and in such complexity that it's mind-boggling.

I'm not saying an independent Scotland would be nirvana, but I see it as heralding a great opportunity in some of these areas.

TCA

incandescent wrote: »

Worse instead of better? Can you actually prove that?

In the mean time, I will not apologise for looking after my own family and demanding a say in my own bloody citizenship and nationality.

I don't need your stats to prove anything. I can look around me and look within my own family and see struggle of ridiculous proportions that shouldn't exist in a country as wealthy as ours. And it's not just my family.

You see independence as something that could lose you everything. Others have nothing to lose to begin with. As rpc said, most will vote for the route that makes them better off. Including you. Many folk (and those close to them) can't see things getting any worse for themselves.

You stick to looking after your own and only your own if you like. For others there's a bigger picture and the status quo just isn't working.

DominicH

TCA wrote: »

As it happens, I personally would be happy to pay more income tax

So what's stopping you? I think it's possible to pay more tax voluntarily. Failing that, give it to charity.

incandescent

TCA wrote: »

I don't need your stats to prove anything.

You can ignore the facts as much as you like, but they won't go away. Let me repeat them, maybe they'll sink in this time:

• We have a higher deficit than the rest of the UK
• Borrowing would be more expensive because of a lower credit rating
• Separation and start up costs would be significant in the first years of independence
• A separate currency would reduce the profitability of our businesses through foreign exchange costs
• We would likely face higher EU contributions - if we get in at all

TCA wrote: »

Others have nothing to lose to begin with. As rpc said, most will vote for the route that makes them better off. Including you. Many folk (and those close to them) can't see things getting any worse for themselves.

Most people have a job, and a home and whatever else matters to them. "Most people" don't "have nothing". Perhaps that's why even now, the No campaign is still leading.

You stick to looking after your own and only your own if you like. For others there's a bigger picture and the status quo just isn't working.

I can't begin to tell you how offensive this is. You are calling me selfish for not wanting my own income to fall again. For wanting to provide for my family. And for having worked hard to get a decent job.

How dare you.

TCA

incandescent wrote: »

I can't begin to tell you how offensive this is. You are calling me selfish for not wanting my own income to fall again. For wanting to provide for my family. And for having worked hard to get a decent job.

How dare you.

I said no such thing. I said you were entitled to vote in your interests. Just don't expect everyone else to vote in your own interests too.

I happen to think the sky won't immediately fall in if a Yes vote went through. I have acknowledged Scotland has a deficit. Yes, it's worse than the UK as a whole. Nearly every OECD country is running a deficit. I don't see that as a barrier. Scotland also has a higher income per capita than the UK. Surely not a bad thing.

I've also acknowledged there will be start up costs. Of course there will. I also think there will be long term savings to be made in certain areas. For me it's worth it to have a welfare systems that directly does what it's supposed to.

There may well be a lower credit rating initially. Again, not a barrier to success. Our existing debt to the UK won't be subject to punitive rates.

I don't believe we'll have a separate currency, at least not for many years. Countries all over the world trade in foreign currencies all the time, so everyone trading in the same currency is hardly a prerequisite. In fact, I agree with the many arguments FOR a separate currency.

As for the EU issues, I agree it would be difficult to retain membership under the existing terms. But I don't see it as mission impossible to get reasonably favourable terms. There is no doubt in my mind that we would get in.

Archi_Bald

TCA wrote: »

Others have nothing to lose to begin with.

TCA, you keep saying that those who don't agree with you are being negative. Now you are being negative, and very emotionally so. Even those scottish people who are unemployed or are just scraping by on low income still have a massive amount to lose - e.g. the security of living in a peaceful country with access to free health care and a social infrastructure that looks after the seriously unlucky or disabled, access to clean water, the right to an education, the right to free speech and justice etc etc etc to mention but a few.

EDIT: just to clarify, I am not saying any or all of these things would vanish independence.

Of course it isn't a perfect state but it would be naive to think it would be perfect under independence. It would just be a different kind of imperfection, and some bits would be better than they are now and some would be worse.

Even in the current less than perfect situation, millions of people around the world would give up everything for being allowed to live in Scotland, or elsewhere in the UK. Look at the brazilian favelas, the townships in South Africa, the slums in South Asia, to mention but a few. That is when the phrase "they have nothing to lose" becomes meaningful.

TCA

Archi_Bald wrote: »

EDIT: just to clarify, I am not saying any or all of these things would vanish independence.

Of course it isn't a perfect state but it would be naive to think it would be perfect under independence. It would just be a different kind of imperfection, and some bits would be better than they are now and some would be worse.

Granted Archi. But the inference from a lot of posts is exactly that we would end up like a Brazilian favela under independence. I repeatedly say that I don't expect perfection, far from it, but many of the good things you list about our country, in my opinion, are not fit for the purpose intended any more.

I think large parts of our society have been continually failed under Westminster and I think we stand a better chance of making improvements on our own two feet. Just because it's OK for a lot of people isn't a good enough reason not to make changes for the better.

The polls currently indicate that most people are happy with the status quo. Fair enough. But there's also quite a lot of people who aren't.

incandescent

TCA wrote: »

I said no such thing. I said you were entitled to vote in your interests. Just don't expect everyone else to vote in your own interests too.

I happen to think the sky won't immediately fall in if a Yes vote went through. I have acknowledged Scotland has a deficit. Yes, it's worse than the UK as a whole. Nearly every OECD country is running a deficit. I don't see that as a barrier. Scotland also has a higher income per capita than the UK. Surely not a bad thing.

I didn't say the sky would fall in either. I did say that we'll face a combo of tax rises and/or spending cuts. Neither of these things are in the Yes manifesto, and neither of these things will be remotely palatable to the electorate after a long recession.

I've also acknowledged there will be start up costs. Of course there will. I also think there will be long term savings to be made in certain areas. For me it's worth it to have a welfare systems that directly does what it's supposed to.

And economies of scale to be lost.

There may well be a lower credit rating initially. Again, not a barrier to success. Our existing debt to the UK won't be subject to punitive rates.

New states never get high credit ratings, simple because they have no financial track record. Citigroup, for example, suggested that an independent Scotland would probably get an A rating, which would add 1.25% over current UK borrowing levels. S&P said much the same.

I don't believe we'll have a separate currency, at least not for many years. Countries all over the world trade in foreign currencies all the time, so everyone trading in the same currency is hardly a prerequisite. In fact, I agree with the many arguments FOR a separate currency.

Every UK party has explicitly ruled out a currency union. The treasury civil servants oppose it. The rUK electorate opposes it. Too many people have staked their reputations on this, and the risks on the rUK would totally outweigh the risks on an iScotland.

And if we have to trade in a separate currency to the rest of the UK, half our trade would be instantly subject to significant costs and risks we simply don't face at the moment. There is simply no spin that can be placed on this to make it seem like a good thing. Surely we should only change our arrangements if they make things better, not worse?

As for the EU issues, I agree it would be difficult to retain membership under the existing terms. But I don't see it as mission impossible to get reasonably favourable terms. There is no doubt in my mind that we would get in.

I expect we'd get in too, but not necessarily immediately and, as you say, we don't know the terms.