Moving into a new house - get ripped off!

boonaroony

Tony - sorry for jumping in on your thread, I was just wondering if anyone could answer my point above i.e. can I offer them less and if so has anyone managed to do this successfully or can I just not pay them? Are they likely to pursue this via the courts?

Cardew

tonyb6 wrote: »

Deemed contracts are enforced upon adopted customers without their knowledge or agreement. I was not privy to this contract not did I agree to it.

The provision of 'Deemed Contracts' is laid down by an Act of Parliament - The Gas/Electricity Acts.


Utility companies have no discretion in this matter but obey the law of the land.


What do you suggest as the alternative? Revert to the system before Privatisation where Electricity and Gas were cut off when the old occupant left and the new occupant would negotiate with the Utility company before the property was reconnected?


Indeed you don't have to accept a 'Deemed Contract'. When you take possession of the property, you can arrange with your chosen supplier to supply the property. The slight drawback is that you mustn't use any gas or electricity in the 6 to 8 weeks it takes for the switch to take place.


The system of 'Deemed Contracts' works totally to the advantage of the new customer. You can walk into your new house and start using gas and electricity without even contacting the company whose energy you are consuming.


Do you think any company - not just the Utility companies - like a system where they are having to supply their goods to an unknown person without payment in advance.


As you are an 'educated man' perhaps if you re-read your posts you might realise how you are aiming your criticism at the wrong people.


Perhaps you can suggest - for the benefit of the Government - how they can amend the relevant Acts.

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Hi Tony

When responsibility for a property changes hands, it's up to the new owner/tenant/landlord/letting agent to let us know about the change.

At this point, we'll send out a Welcome Pack to the person taking over. This contains details of the tariff and the terms of supply.

If we're not contacted, there's no way of us knowing of any changes.

Deemed contracts are an industry wide means of ensuring continuity of supply in these circumstances. As Cardew says, they're part of the relevant Gas and Electricity Utility Acts that govern the industry and are monitored by Ofgem.

This may not apply to you, but deemed contracts only come into effect when energy is actually used. If there's no usage (say, in a holiday home, long-term vacant property etc) then we won't charge. We only charge where energy is used, even if it's just 1 kWh.

Again, cooling off and objection periods during a change of supplier are regulatory requirements that all suppliers have to follow.

The cooling off period is given by the gaining supplier, not the losing supplier, to allow customers a change of heart.

For us, objections are usually made where a customer wishes to leave but there's a debt on the account.

As I said earlier, we only have 4 tariffs for customers with credit meters.

Prepayment meters are a different type of set up. Standing charges and unit rates are, though, the same whether it's a credit meter on a standard tariff or a prepayment meter.

On our standard tariff, standing charges and gas unit prices are the same wherever you are in the UK. There are, though, regional differences in the unit rates for electricity.

Also for electricity, the prices will depend on whether your meter is a single rate or two rate Economy 7.

To recap, for a single rate credit meter in the North West, we've 4 tariffs available. Sorry this wasn't clear before.

You're right, we can only put you on a tariff with restrictions and eligibility criteria following a conversation with you and your acceptance of the terms.

Just a thought, on one of our cheaper current tariffs, the cancellation fee is £5 per fuel. Depending on your usage and how long it takes for npower to take over the account, might be worth going on to this tariff until the switch. The cancellation fee could be swallowed up by cheaper unit rates. Not saying this will be the case, just something to be aware of.

Hope this answers your questions Tony. Let me know if you need any more details or if I've missed anything. Please be aware, I'm out of the office now until next Tuesday so will pick up then.

Malc

Richie-from-the-Boro

tonyb6,

This Electricity Supply Deemed Contract Scheme came in to force [Electricity Act 1989] it explains the terms and conditions that will apply to a deemed contract, being a contract that, by law, is imposed between parties where no existing contractual relationship exists. This gets whined about several times a week on this board. Its been the normal arrangement for 35 years in the UK. Anger at anyone else is pointless - caveat emptor my friend.

Cardew

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

tonyb6,

This Electricity Supply Deemed Contract Scheme came in to force [Electricity Act 1989] it explains the terms and conditions that will apply to a deemed contract, being a contract that, by law, is imposed between parties where no existing contractual relationship exists. This gets whined about several times a week on this board. Its been the normal arrangement for 35 years in the UK. Anger at anyone else is pointless - caveat emptor my friend.

Agree completely - apart from the arithmetic:D

Richie-from-the-Boro

Yep should be 25 Cardew my friend.

tonyb6

Cardew wrote: »

The provision of 'Deemed Contracts' is laid down by an Act of Parliament - The Gas/Electricity Acts.


Utility companies have no discretion in this matter but obey the law of the land.


What do you suggest as the alternative? Revert to the system before Privatisation where Electricity and Gas were cut off when the old occupant left and the new occupant would negotiate with the Utility company before the property was reconnected?


Indeed you don't have to accept a 'Deemed Contract'. When you take possession of the property, you can arrange with your chosen supplier to supply the property. The slight drawback is that you mustn't use any gas or electricity in the 6 to 8 weeks it takes for the switch to take place.


The system of 'Deemed Contracts' works totally to the advantage of the new customer. You can walk into your new house and start using gas and electricity without even contacting the company whose energy you are consuming.


Do you think any company - not just the Utility companies - like a system where they are having to supply their goods to an unknown person without payment in advance.


As you are an 'educated man' perhaps if you re-read your posts you might realise how you are aiming your criticism at the wrong people.


Perhaps you can suggest - for the benefit of the Government - how they can amend the relevant Acts.

In response

The alternative I suggest is such as happens with your phone supplier. You make a request in advance of moving in for services to be supplied at your move in date.

With any contract I expect to be informed about it and given the choice as to accept it or not. With this deemed contract I was not given any prior information or choice. Simply I was forced into this contract with with the supplier. It seems from glancing over the associated acts that I was actually forced into this contract before I had even moved into the house. The previous occupier left the property on the 5th Jan but choose to set the alarm on leaving. As a result of this more than 1kWh of eclectic was used in that period forcing me into this deemed contract. You are incorrect when you say "I" must not use any gas or electricity what you actually mean is that the property must not use any gas or electricity.

You say the system of deemed contracts "works totally to the advantage of the new customer". My problem with this is that I did not choose to be E-on's customer rather I was forced into the contract. You say when a new occupier moves into a property he is automatically a "customer" of the previous occupiers supplier. I say when a new occupier moves into a property he should be free to choose his own supplier. The fact that E-on are then free to charge me whatever fees they like without notification, agreement or negotiation are not to my advantage.

Neither water utility companies, telecoms companies or even council tax payments are made in advance when you move into a new property. It seems to work quite well for services.

And thank you, yes I am an educated man and as such I can see exactly how E-on are able to take advantage of new owner/occupiers by basically holding them to ransom and charging them excessive amounts without agreement or negotiation for their gas/electricity usage . If you are not able to see then then maybe you are not as 'educated' as you think you are.

And yes, for information I am also in the process or writing to Ofgem.

tonyb6

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

tonyb6,

This Electricity Supply Deemed Contract Scheme came in to force [Electricity Act 1989] it explains the terms and conditions that will apply to a deemed contract, being a contract that, by law, is imposed between parties where no existing contractual relationship exists. This gets whined about several times a week on this board. Its been the normal arrangement for 35 years in the UK. Anger at anyone else is pointless - caveat emptor my friend.

Please point out to me where in the Electricity Supply Deemed Contract Scheme it states E-on must take advantage and charge these contractually bound customers their highest tariffs rates for their gas and electricity usage?

tonyb6

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

Hi Tony

When responsibility for a property changes hands, it's up to the new owner/tenant/landlord/letting agent to let us know about the change.

At this point, we'll send out a Welcome Pack to the person taking over. This contains details of the tariff and the terms of supply.

If we're not contacted, there's no way of us knowing of any changes.


Deemed contracts are an industry wide means of ensuring continuity of supply in these circumstances. As Cardew says, they're part of the relevant Gas and Electricity Utility Acts that govern the industry and are monitored by Ofgem.

This may not apply to you, but deemed contracts only come into effect when energy is actually used. If there's no usage (say, in a holiday home, long-term vacant property etc) then we won't charge. We only charge where energy is used, even if it's just 1 kWh.

Again, cooling off and objection periods during a change of supplier are regulatory requirements that all suppliers have to follow.

The cooling off period is given by the gaining supplier, not the losing supplier, to allow customers a change of heart.

For us, objections are usually made where a customer wishes to leave but there's a debt on the account.

As I said earlier, we only have 4 tariffs for customers with credit meters.

Prepayment meters are a different type of set up. Standing charges and unit rates are, though, the same whether it's a credit meter on a standard tariff or a prepayment meter.

On our standard tariff, standing charges and gas unit prices are the same wherever you are in the UK. There are, though, regional differences in the unit rates for electricity.

Also for electricity, the prices will depend on whether your meter is a single rate or two rate Economy 7.

To recap, for a single rate credit meter in the North West, we've 4 tariffs available. Sorry this wasn't clear before.

You're right, we can only put you on a tariff with restrictions and eligibility criteria following a conversation with you and your acceptance of the terms.

Just a thought, on one of our cheaper current tariffs, the cancellation fee is £5 per fuel. Depending on your usage and how long it takes for Npower to take over the account, might be worth going on to this tariff until the switch. The cancellation fee could be swallowed up by cheaper unit rates. Not saying this will be the case, just something to be aware of.


Hope this answers your questions Tony. Let me know if you need any more details or if I've missed anything. Please be aware, I'm out of the office now until next Tuesday so will pick up then.

Malc

In responce

When responsibility for a property changes hands, it's up to the new owner/tenant/landlord/letting agent to let us know about the change.

As in my other posts. As a new occupier I have no knowldge that you are the previus occupiers supplier. Am i expected to contact all the enegery suppliers and ask them if they previusly supplied my new property and if so am i then expected to ask not to place me into a contract that i didnt even know existed.

At this point, we'll send out a Welcome Pack to the person taking over. This contains details of the tariff and the terms of supply.

As in my other posts above. I recieved no welcome pack from E-on. The first knowldge I had that your were the supplier to the property was when your bill arrived on the 30th Jan.

If we're not contacted, there's no way of us knowing of any changes.

You say if your not contacted then there is no way of knowing the new occupier in which case then maybe you can explain how your bill on teh 30th Jan was addressed to me by name ? Maybe your sourced this information from your customer, namely the previous occupier?

Deemed contracts are an industry wide means of ensuring continuity of supply in these circumstances. As Cardew says, they're part of the relevant Gas and Electricity Utility Acts that govern the industry and are monitored by Ofgem.

Deemed contracts may well be law and monitored by Ofgem but they don't enforce E-on to fleece you by charging you their highest tariffs while your trapped in these contracts.

This may not apply to you, but deemed contracts only come into effect when energy is actually used. If there's no usage (say, in a holiday home, long-term vacant property etc) then we won't charge. We only charge where energy is used, even if it's just 1 kWh.

To be clear here. Its not the new occupier or person who needs to use energy but rather the property. So in the period between the previous occupier moving out on the 5th Jan and me moving in on the 13th Jan the house alarm which used electricity without my knowledge tied me into a deemed contract with yourselves and as such you placed me on your highest rate tariff without notification or agreement.

Again, cooling off and objection periods during a change of supplier are regulatory requirements that all suppliers have to follow.

From which you benefit as you are able to hold me ransom and change me your highest tariffs until my supplier takes over or I sign "an agreed" contract with yourselves which then releases me from the un-agreed deemed contract

The cooling off period is given by the gaining supplier, not the losing supplier, to allow customers a change of heart.

In the above post you state the 3rd week of the switching period is given to the loosing supplier so that they may refuse to release the customer if they wish. Is this incorrect?

For us, objections are usually made where a customer wishes to leave but there's a debt on the account.

But there can be other reasons to? hell why not your making money from me!

As I said earlier, we only have 4 tariffs for customers with credit meters.

If you only have 4 tariffs then then why am I not able to directly compare your gas and electric prices? On my bill of which I am on your E.ON Energy Plan tariff I pay 14.09p per kWh for electric and 4.15p per kWh of gas. As you only have 4 tariffs please let me know what I would pay per kWh for my gas and electric if I were on your

A) E.ON Energy Fixed 1 Year v6 tariff and
E.ON Energy Fixed 2 Year v5 plans?

Prepayment meters are a different type of set up. Standing charges and unit rates are, though, the same whether it's a credit meter on a standard tariff or a prepayment meter.

On our standard tariff, standing charges and gas unit prices are the same wherever you are in the UK. There are, though, regional differences in the unit rates for electricity.

Just to be clear also when you say above your 'Standard Tariff. Do you mean your E. ON Energy Plan tariff or is the 'Standard tariff another tariff?

Also for electricity, the prices will depend on whether your meter is a single rate or two rate Economy 7.

To recap, for a single rate credit meter in the North West, we've 4 tariffs available. Sorry this wasn't clear before.

And since we are trying to be clear you say "To recap, for a single rate credit meter in the North West, we've 4 tariffs available." My question again however is. Are these the same 4 tariffs available to a customers on a single rate credit meter in the South East or Midlands and as such are the charges the same?

You're right, we can only put you on a tariff with restrictions and eligibility criteria following a conversation with you and your acceptance of the terms.

Where as a deemed contract requires no acceptance from me.

Just a thought, on one of our cheaper current tariffs, the cancellation fee is £5 per fuel. Depending on your usage and how long it takes for Npower to take over the account, might be worth going on to this tariff until the switch. The cancellation fee could be swallowed up by cheaper unit rates. Not saying this will be the case, just something to be aware of.

You say above "on one of your cheaper tariffs the cancellation fee is only £5 per fuel". If you only have 4 tariffs, namely the
E.ON Energy Plan,
E.ON Energy Fixed 1 Year v6,
E.ON Energy Fixed 2 Year v5
60+ Aged UK fixed
maybe you can tell me which tariff your statement applies to and also the bit that I really don't understand is why does it depend on my usage! Surely your not saying a customer who uses 100 units of gas per time period pays a different amount (or tariff) than say another customer who uses 500 units of gas in the same period?


Regards

Cardew

tonyb6 wrote: »

In response

The alternative I suggest is such as happens with your phone supplier. You make a request in advance of moving in for services to be supplied at your move in date.

With any contract I expect to be informed about it and given the choice as to accept it or not. With this deemed contract I was not given any prior information or choice. Simply I was forced into this contract with with the supplier. It seems from glancing over the associated acts that I was actually forced into this contract before I had even moved into the house. The previous occupier left the property on the 5th Jan but choose to set the alarm on leaving. As a result of this more than 1kWh of eclectic was used in that period forcing me into this deemed contract. You are incorrect when you say "I" must not use any gas or electricity what you actually mean is that the property must not use any gas or electricity.

You say the system of deemed contracts "works totally to the advantage of the new customer". My problem with this is that I did not choose to be E-on's customer rather I was forced into the contract. You say when a new occupier moves into a property he is automatically a "customer" of the previous occupiers supplier. I say when a new occupier moves into a property he should be free to choose his own supplier. The fact that E-on are then free to charge me whatever fees they like without notification, agreement or negotiation are not to my advantage.

Neither water utility companies, telecoms companies or even council tax payments are made in advance when you move into a new property. It seems to work quite well for services.

And thank you, yes I am an educated man and as such I can see exactly how E-on are able to take advantage of new owner/occupiers by basically holding them to ransom and charging them excessive amounts without agreement or negotiation for their gas/electricity usage . If you are not able to see then then maybe you are not as 'educated' as you think you are.

And yes, for information I am also in the process or writing to Ofgem.

There are loads of reasons why a contract cannot be set up in advance.


Firstly under legislation there must be a cooling off period of two weeks and the switch takes several weeks.


Secondly there is no provision to inform the current occupant of the property that the provider of gas and electricity will change.

Dear British Gas,


I intend moving into 10 Downing Street London SW1 in 6 weeks time. Please arrange to set up gas and electricity contacts in my name(Ed Miliband). Sorry don't have the meter serial numbers, and the current occupant is not co-operative; he even thinks that he might not be moving.


Ed

You are not 'forced' into any contract with the supplier. You can wait until you are the occupant and then set up contracts with whoever you wish. You just mustn't use any gas electricity from the current supplier.

As explained to you in detail by everyone else on this thread, the 'deemed contract system works to the new occupant's advantage. They can move into a property with the gas electricity connected.

Is it not possible that you might be wrong in your criticism - especially of E-on who are obeying the law.?

Guess not eh!