Anyone been fined yet for taking kids out of school?

andygb

Mojisola wrote: »

And it's never just one child per class.

So it's Monday on week 22. Gra Junior has missed weeks 20 and 21. Young Smith was off for weeks 19 and 20. Jones and Wilson are on holiday now and won't be back til the start of week 23. Four others missed a couple of different days because of sickness during those four weeks.

The children who had 100% attendance are getting bored because they've covered all the work but the kids who were on holiday don't understand the current topic because of what they missed so the progress of the whole class suffers.

:beer:
Excellent post, I was going to say something along those lines but you have done it so much better.
I sometimes wonder if some parents know the chaos which they cause by taking their children out of school during term time.

Mojisola

andygb wrote: »

:beer:
Excellent post, I was going to say something along those lines but you have done it so much better.
I sometimes wonder if some parents know the chaos which they cause by taking their children out of school during term time.

And whether they realise that their child's progress is being affected by the other children who go on holiday during term time.

maman

Gra76 wrote: »

As an afterthought do you agree with your colleagues proposed strike in March and if so do you think it's fair that I (and countless thousands of other parents) have to take time off work to look after the kids that you and your colleagues should be teaching? Don't you think this is damaging to the economy of the country as it'll mean huge amounts of lost working hours across the country? What measures are you putting in place to make sure that they catch up on the schoolwork they'll miss out on? Or are you expecting the parents to do something in their own time to fix a problem created by you?

It all feels very hypocritical. You can't have it both ways.

But surely, those parents who hold view like yours are expecting exactly that. They expect schools to be there everyday to provide childcare and get very angry if school is closed whether for strike days, snow or staff training. Then at the same time, they think it's OK for their child not to turn up so they can save some money on a holiday. Where's the logic in that?

peachyprice

Gra76 wrote: »

As an afterthought do you agree with your colleagues proposed strike in March and if so do you think it's fair that I (and countless thousands of other parents) have to take time off work to look after the kids that you and your colleagues should be teaching? Don't you think this is damaging to the economy of the country as it'll mean huge amounts of lost working hours across the country? What measures are you putting in place to make sure that they catch up on the schoolwork they'll miss out on? Or are you expecting the parents to do something in their own time to fix a problem created by you?

It all feels very hypocritical. You can't have it both ways.

Schools are there to educate children, not for free childcare.

No lessons will be missed during the strike, the teachers won't be there to teach it, they'll just cover whatever was planned for that day over the following weeks.

I can see missing school for holidays did you more harm than you thought.

ViolaLass

Gra76 wrote: »

When I was at school you were expected to catch up in your own time when you got back from holiday, including any homework that had been set in the time you'd been off. When you got home from your holiday you opened your drawer at school and it had all your homework to be done in it. You caught up in your own time. It worked perfectly well. That's how it used to be and as the old saying goes, if it aint broke, don't fix it. As far as I'm concerned, if a child has a good attendance for the rest of the year it shouldn't even be an issue. My opinion is that the government have taken it a step too far.

That works IF the parents are proactive in making sure the child catches up. Not all are. Not all children are able/willing/pushed to catch up in their own time. Some need help.

Gra76 wrote: »

I agree that if a child is habitually off from school for no reason then something has to be done, but I think it's very unfair to penalise the majority of parents who make sure their kids attendance is high if not perfect.

Mojisola's post after my last answered this one well.

Gra76 wrote: »

As an afterthought do you agree with your colleagues proposed strike in March and if so do you think it's fair that I (and countless thousands of other parents) have to take time off work to look after the kids that you and your colleagues should be teaching? Don't you think this is damaging to the economy of the country as it'll mean huge amounts of lost working hours across the country? What measures are you putting in place to make sure that they catch up on the schoolwork they'll miss out on? Or are you expecting the parents to do something in their own time to fix a problem created by you?

It all feels very hypocritical. You can't have it both ways.

My union is not striking and therefore I will not be, so accusing me of hypocrisy is a bit harsh (not all teachers join the NUT). I have never gone on strike so far and I would not do so lightly.

BUT...

if I felt the need to strike to protect my pay/pension/working conditions, I would consider that to be more important than you being able to pay less to take your child abroad at a time of your choosing. Yes, a strike might inconvenience the parents but that is rather the point of strikes!

A whole class missing one single lesson is not going to have remotely the same impact on their learning as your child missing 6 lessons in a row.

Gra76

maman wrote: »

But surely, those parents who hold view like yours are expecting exactly that. They expect schools to be there everyday to provide childcare and get very angry if school is closed whether for strike days, snow or staff training. Then at the same time, they think it's OK for their child not to turn up so they can save some money on a holiday. Where's the logic in that?

Well yes, of course we expect schools to be open for the kids because that's exactly what they're there for. I expect them to be open because teachers are paid to be there, the same as any job. If you're paid to do a job then you should do it, so I think it's fair to assume that schools should be open every day if they can be.

I don't get angry if the schools are closed for unavoidable reasons, and a couple of flakes of snow doesn't constitute an unavoidable reason although apparently it does at our local school but that's a whole other rant. I've no problem with any legitimate reason for a school to be shut. No problem at all. I remember my secondary school was shut for a few days due to the mains water supply bursting in the school yard. That's a legitimate reason, the place was mostly flooded and it took a while to get the leak repaired and the water out. Even then, the caretakers were still mopping the rooms out when we went back. You couldn't do that these days, people would still be doing risk assessments and method statements for mopping the water up instead of getting the job done.

I suppose what it boils down to is being fined for something that hasn't been a problem for years and has only been turned into a problem in the last few years due to the fines being brought in. I don't see why the kids can't be given two lots of 'allowance' for days off during the school year. One for enforced absence, and another for holidays. If you go over that allowance then you face a fine. That would be fairer in my opinion.

I still don't see why the kids who go on holiday shouldn't just be handed the coursework and homework they would have had to do while they were at school and made to catch up on it in their own time. I did it, everyone at my school did it, come to think about it I'd be surprised if there was anyone around my age (mid/late 30's) that didn't have to do that. Our generation isn't broken due to holidays during term time as far as I can tell.

I see there's clearly a few teachers kicking about in this thread that will (and obviously have been) disagreeing with me. It's an emotive topic so I'd expect no less. Carry on! :cool:

daisiegg

Gra76 wrote: »

I still don't see why the kids who go on holiday shouldn't just be handed the coursework and homework they would have had to do while they were at school and made to catch up on it in their own time. I did it, everyone at my school did it, come to think about it I'd be surprised if there was anyone around my age (mid/late 30's) that didn't have to do that. Our generation isn't broken due to holidays during term time as far as I can tell.

1) If it were that simple to complete a week or two weeks' worth of work on their own in their own time, why even have schools or teachers in the first place? Surely we could just sit kids in a room with some worksheets and they would learn perfectly well...?

2) In an earlier post you mentioned coming back from holiday to find all your work 'in your drawer'. Not sure if you are referring to primary school or what, but most students do not have 'drawers' or a central place to put work. Therefore, if they are a secondary student, their ten or more different teachers for different subjects would each need to put together a pack of work, seek out the student when they return from holiday and give this to them. Bearing in mind that a secondary teacher usually teaches hundreds of different students, any number of whom could be off at any given time, this becomes a bit more complicated than just placing work in a drawer. In an ideal world, the student would go to see each of their teachers to get missed work. In practice, this does not happen. Which brings me to my next point...

3) Students DON'T catch up. You are saying you and your peers all did - well good for you. That is the way it should be. Now, schools have very little ability to enforce anything with their pupils (see the thread currently running about a mother who has taken her child out of school because she is being punished by missing some play time). How do you suggest the students are made to catch up? Because I will guess most of your suggestions would involve more work for their multiple teachers (including anything from spending extra time with the student to explain things, chasing them up to get the work in, phoning home to remind parents that the work needs to be done, etc...), all of whom could have numerous students having missed different bits of work all needing to catch up at any given time. This takes a lot of time away from what a teacher is meant to be doing.

Unless you have a very conscientious student, with parents who are on the ball, chances are, work that is missed while on holiday will never be 'caught up'. This then leads to myriad problems later in the year when the student is approaching exams or coursework and struggles because they missed a crucial part of their learning.

Ultimately, absence for any reason has been proven to have a negative and measurable impact on student achievement. Therefore, it is only responsible for the government to try and limit this as far as possible. They can't stop children getting sick, but they can try to stop their parents taking them on holiday when they should be in school.

Gloomendoom

Gra76 wrote: »

I suppose what it boils down to is being fined for something that hasn't been a problem for years and has only been turned into a problem in the last few years due to the fines being brought in.

It's only become a problem in the last few years because of the number of parents taking their children out of school to go on holiday had been steadily increasing. Before the fines were introduced, it wasn't a problem for the parents, but it was a problem for the schools.

Now the misery is being shared. Fair's fair.
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suejb2

My D.D had an operation in Year 2 and had 2 weeks prior to half term off school.The operation was planned (tonsils out) but you cannot choose the date.She was given some work to do when she felt up to it and upon returning to school she received further work that brought her up to speed.She caught up.
That was the case for me, school Primary in the 70s Secondary the 80s you knew the work was going to be there when you got back to school or you asked a mate to get it and bring it round.
We have taken our children out during term time for the unofficial "10 days"

GobbledyGook

Gloomendoom wrote: »

It's only become a problem in the last few years because of the number of parents taking their children out of school to go on holiday had been steadily increasing. Before the fines were introduced, it wasn't a problem for the parents, but it was a problem for the schools.

Now the misery is being shared. Fair's fair.
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There has also been a change in teaching styles as well.

When I went on holiday the teacher could give me my workbook and told me that they would be doing page 10-whatever while I was away.

They don't work so much like that now. For a start kids don't have their own workbooks half as much due to the costs. So it does take effort on the teacher to sort out all the different worksheets they are going to be doing and the likes, and there is simply no replacement for the work done as a group or on the white/smart boards.

I think there is a difference between children who are going on holiday and those in hospital. It's one thing putting some work together for a child off school for medical reasons that faffing about every week sorting out work for whoever happens to be off at that particular moment. Even in primary school that can cover more than one teacher when you take into account that some (especially where there is more than one class per year group) children can switch teachers for certain lessons - my DD goes into the class next door at Maths time for example - and there will be someone teaching something during the class teacher's non-contact time.