MSE News: O2 to hike its prices by 2.7% - can you leave your contract penalty-free?

AlwaysConfused

thehalk wrote: »

now for something more relevant...

...i had my standard letter response today setting out the usual copy and past stuff from matt barraclough, complaint review service. i am going to reply requesting their final position on the matter and contact the ombudsman stating that i dispute the decision not to let me terminate early because of the out-of-contract price increases that are a significant material detriment to me.

who knew! The report button works on this forum.:T

well done moderators :beer:

@thehalk
fyi. The post following yours is not a response to your good self.

DUTR

AlwaysConfused wrote: »

who knew! The report button works on this forum.:T

well done moderators :beer:

@thehalk
fyi. The post following yours is not a response to your good self.

You make it read as if you won something, yet your post was edited too (I didn't report anything), let me explain again, if for instance you preffered say an iphone and i preffered an S4, it doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, or that I'm going to dislike you for your difference in opinion, only time will tell if O2 reverse their descision .

AlwaysConfused

DUTR wrote: »

You make it read as if you won something, yet your post was edited too (I didn't report anything), let me explain again, if for instance you preffered say an iphone and i preffered an S4, it doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, or that I'm going to dislike you for your difference in opinion, only time will tell if O2 reverse their descision .

what was won? mmm... maybe it was that the post poking fun at another member for for using the report button was removed. Also, it was @thehalk who won, not me. I was merely happy to see that the system works on this forum. So I guess we all won.

Yes, my post was edited. I suggest you read the reason for the edit and look at what was removed. (pst... there's a note on the bottom of my post. just a wee hint). I wouldn't dream of making a false representation.

but I do thank you for providing an example of why people are getting frustrated with the ombudsman. They are not paying attention to what's being asked, making assumptions and being of no apparent value. If they paid attention they wouldn't be coming across as foolish.

As previously stated differences of opinions are always welcome, especially if constructive and appropriate to the issue.
I work in a position where I have to document systems so people can support and trouble shoot them 24/7 . life being what it is things often go wrong at silly o'clock in the morning and the people who have to deal them may not be as familiar with the way things work and it's essential that they are equipped with relevant and comprehensive documents. To this end we engage in 'peer review'. Basically I hand over the documentation to a colleague and ask them to tear it apart, go nuts and be truly picky. Just like people do on here. I'm not perfect and often they'll come back asking for clarification of X, more details on Y and sometimes pretty pictures of what Z should look like. If they come back asking why I've used size 11 rather than size 12 for the font I know that they may not be the best person to contribute if I want to avoid a phone call at 3am.

that's just a long winded way of saying it's important to listen to other people, even if they don't agree as long as it's relevant and not just noise. This forum is an excellent opportunity for peer review in many different ways. Please don't fill it will noise, read what is posted, then read it again. If you don't agree that's great as long as you taking part in the same conversation!!!:D

DUTR

AlwaysConfused wrote: »

(snipped)
that's just a long winded way of saying it's important to listen to other people, even if they don't agree as long as it's relevant and not just noise. This forum is an excellent opportunity for peer review in many different ways. Please don't fill it will noise, read what is posted, then read it again. If you don't agree that's great as long as you taking part in the same conversation!!!:D

I don't think it's me that you should be telling that, I do listen and read otherwise I wouldn't take the time to reply, at present there is only personal attack on DUTR because I don't whole heartedly agree on challenging the descision whatever the motives the companies have. I have posted what I have and those that choose to be offended by it have read it and whether the comments were removed, they already know the thoughts are still there, it's not to say if I was in a bar I wouldn't buy you a drink just because you may have different political views on petty subjects. I watched the thread on the Orange increases last year or the year before and there was a lot of mouthing off, but in the long run the company's descision stood even after all the threats of ombudsman etc, I don't see this thread as any different really, and as mentioned in another post (if that too hasn't been deleted) that I fear the real motives for challenging is so that the poster feels they will get a handset out of the deal. If that's not the case then they can carry on with the battle, I'm sure in months to go, they won't be adult enough to say hey DUTR and such like you were on the money with that line of thought, that is not to say I'm never incorrect on my views or anybody else, although it does seem many are fantasy bargaining with a possibility of a reversal. The companies have their own legal teams, so before any announcement there will be consultation with those that write and proof read and legal test the contracts (I too have done the management thing) , doesn't mean I work for O2 or orange and I wouldn't be so immature to report the posts, people can read respond and move on.

:grouphug:

GolfBravo

What's the general consensus re: replying to Ombudsman's copy & paste reply? Reply to their email or lodge a new complaint through their online form?

ChilliP2012

I would reply directly to their original email and point out GC9 and point them in the direction that this is an OFCOM ruling which O2 are clearly (imho) breaking.

This is basically what I've done and if I get the same response then I will take it to small claims and I'll see if GC9 stands up in a court. My guess is though that O2 won't want to get it that far and will no doubt cancel my contract before any proceedings taking place.

parrysite

Here is my reply if anyone wishes to use it.

Dear Ombudsman Services,

I would like to clarify that my complaint is not regarding the price rises, the complaint is that they have not given me the option to withdraw from the contract without penalty.

Under your general condition 9.6, I find that this price rise puts me at material detriment and therefore I want to invoke my rights to cancel without penalty.

Taken from your own website:

"Ofcom has issued guidance which explains that we are likely to treat any price increase to the agreed core subscription charge (however constructed and described in the contract terms) during the fixed term of a telecommunications contract as a modification that is of, or is likely to be of, material detriment to consumers and small business customers (no more than 10 employees).
In the event of any such price increase, Ofcom is likely to take the view that those customers should:
(a) be given at least one month’s notice of the price increase and of their ability to exit the contract without penalty if the proposed increase is unacceptable; and
(b) be allowed to exit their contract without penalty if they choose to exercise that right.
By subscription charge, we mean the recurring (usually monthly) amount that you pay for an inclusive allowance of services (e.g. for mobile users, the core subscription charge usually includes a monthly allowance of call minutes, number of texts and data usage) as agreed at point of sale.
You may agree that different prices apply at different times (e.g. £10 in year 1 of a contract and £12 in year 2). As long as these prices are clear enough and you agree to them, you would not be able to end the contract when the later agreed price is applied."

Please reconsider your decision taking the above into account.

Josh

GolfBravo

Thank you for the above. I am just about to reply to the Ombudsman, and I intend to use the Ofcom Guidance from May 2011.

It appears that from 25/05/2011 "subscribers must be able to withdraw from contracts penalty-free following a notice of materially detrimental contract modifications" and "contract termination conditions and procedures for termination must not act as a disincentive to end-users from switching their providers".

So the Ombudsman's reply stating that "The new Ofcom guidance applies to contracts taken out by consumers and small businesses on or after 23rd January 2014. For customers who were in a contract prior to 23 January 2014, we cannot apply the new guidance" is completely irrelevant.

On 23 May 2011, and following public consultation, Ofcom issued a statement following its review of the General Conditions and Universal Service Conditions. The review and subsequent modifications to the relevant Conditions took account of the changes to the Universal Service Directive (USD).

Amongst other changes, Ofcom made modifications to GC9. The key changes to GC9 were:
...
subscribers must be able to withdraw from contracts penalty-free following a notice of any materially detrimental contract modifications.
...
Ofcom may initiate separate investigations of named providers. Where we do so, these will be announced via Ofcom's Competition and Consumer Enforcement Bulletin. Alternatively, we may move directly under this programme to take enforcement action where, for example, Ofcom has reasonable grounds for believing that a CP is contravening GC9. In that case, Ofcom will announce its action via an update to this Bulletin entry.

Case Leader: Carmen To (e-mail: carmen.to@ofcom.org.uk)
Case Reference: CW/01082/01/12

And just for reference, GC 9.6 - please note that there was no modification of GC in January 2014, Ofcom merely clarified their definition of material detriment for new contracts.

9.6 The Communications Provider shall:

(a) give its Subscribers adequate notice not shorter than one month
of any modifications likely to be of material detriment to that
Subscriber;

(b) allow its Subscribers to withdraw from their contract without
penalty upon such notice; and

(c) at the same time as giving the notice in condition 9.6 (a) above,
shall inform the Subscriber of its ability to terminate the contract
without penalty if the proposed modification is not acceptable to
the Subscriber.

DUTR

GolfBravo wrote: »

9.6 The Communications Provider shall:

(a) give its Subscribers adequate notice not shorter than one month
of any modifications likely to be of material detriment to that
Subscriber;

(b) allow its Subscribers to withdraw from their contract without
penalty upon such notice; and

(c) at the same time as giving the notice in condition 9.6 (a) above,
shall inform the Subscriber of its ability to terminate the contract
without penalty if the proposed modification is not acceptable to
the Subscriber.

perhaps some may have a different interpetation of the condition,
9.6 b and 9.6c are applicable if 9.6a is not possible or acceptable.
Eg if the company proposed a £2/month increase on a £20 tariff from bills 21 days in future.

V_For_Verminator

o2 haven't responded to the reply I made challenging their initial response, so after 17 days it looks like I need to complain about the complaint!

This time I am going to just ask directly for a deadlock letter - do they have to provide me with one or can they object?