Hiring Van - out of date photo license questions...

Paradigm

desperation wrote: »

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

4. (1) Section 99 (duration of licences) is amended as follows.

(2) For subsection (2A)(1) substitute—

“(2A) Where in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force after the last day of the administrative validity period, the holder of the licence must nevertheless surrender the licence and its counterpart to the Secretary of State not later than that day.

(2B) Subject to subsections (2C) to (2H), the administrative validity period of a licence in the form of a photocard is—

(a)where the licence authorises its holder to drive any class of goods vehicle or passenger-carrying vehicle prescribed for the purposes of subsection (1A) otherwise than for a purpose mentioned in section 97(2) or by virtue of section 98(2)(2), the period of 5 years beginning with the date shown on the licence as the date of issue; and
(b)in any other case, the period of 10 years beginning with the date shown on the licence as the date of issue.
(2C) In the case of a licence issued before 19th January 2013, the administrative validity period is the period of 10 years beginning with—

(a)the date shown on the licence as the date of issue,

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/977/schedule/1/paragraph/4/made

You seem to be reading things that are not there or missing the obvious....

(2B) Subject to subsections (2C) to (2H), the administrative validity period of a licence in the form of a photocard is—

Not quite the same as the legislation I posted that hasn't been amended, administrative is the all important word... the licence is valid until the 70th b/day.

desperation_2

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20121015000000/http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DG_201208

The new driving licence card design explained


From 19 January 2013 all driving licences issued by DVLA will be in a new format. Old format licences will still be valid, they will be updated gradually as they are renewed and replaced. Find out more about the new style driving licence.
New style driving licence card explained


Front of the driving licence
The front of the card will record your current surname, first names, date and place of birth.
It will include your driver licence and issue number, and the start and end date of your licence. It will also include a black and white electronic copy of your photo and an electronic copy of your signature.
The front of the card will show the vehicles you are entitled to drive.
If you have a full licence your provisional entitlement will be shown on the counterpart.
If you hold a provisional licence your provisional entitlement will be shown on the front of your card.
A colour photograph will need to be provided with your application to be stored on your driver record.

Back of driving licence
The back of the card will have the vehicle categories the holder can and cannot drive. All categories the holder can drive will display valid from and valid to dates. Categories the holder cannot drive will be crossed out.
Categories and pictograms
The letters in capitals and the pictures show all the categories of vehicles according to the European Third Directive.


As stated previously there is a difference between a Valid licence and Entitlement to drive.

Paradigm

You're just reposting the same stuff.... I posted the legislation, the law!

If you want to disagree with it please yourself.

Joe_Horner

desperation wrote: »

As stated previously there is a difference between a Valid licence and Entitlement to drive.

You were doing quite well with the statutes up until that point.

There's a difference between a "valid licence" and a "valid photograph".

The Road Traffic Act, which is what the amendment you quoted actually amends, has this to say:

99 Duration of licences.

(1) In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive motor vehicles of classes other than any prescribed class of goods vehicle or any prescribed class of passenger-carrying vehicle, it] shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force, subject to subsection (2) below—

(a)except in a case falling within paragraph (b) or (c) of this subsection, for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth or for a period of three years, whichever is the longer,

[...]

Paragraphs (b) and (c) deal with special cases like medical restrictions and the "subject to section 2 below" is to allow for the fact that a licence can be revoked at any time if the Secretary of State thinks it should be.

Note that they don't actually use the words "valid / invalid" in relation to licences. The term used for what's commonly called "valid" is in force, so a licence is either in force (valid) or not in force (invalid).

In that context, the amendment you posted above makes it clear that the licence itself can remain in force (ie: valid) even if the photocard has expired "administratively" because its section 99(1) above that specified when the licence itself expires.

That's why you can't be charged for driving "otherwise than in accordance with a licence" (RTA Section 87(1)) just because the photo has expired. It does not say "otherwise in accordance with an entitlement to drive"!

Paradigm

I could be wrong but if IIRC it's the same offence as failing to update a change of address (or name for women getting married).

I've not heard of anyone actually being prosecuted for failing to update their photo, it would be interesting to know if anyone here has been or knows of someone who has?

desperation_2

Paradigm, I agree with you earlier post #40, yes you did post the law.

And Joe Horner has subsequently re posted it

I agree with the statements that the licence shall remain in force etc etc, specifically unless previously revoked or surrendered. That is the law, yes.

However

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 amended Section 99
(2A) Where in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force after the last day of the administrative validity period, the holder of the licence must nevertheless surrender the licence and its counterpart to the Secretary of State not later than that day.

If you do not you do not have an 'in force' (valid) licence as you have not surrendered it, as required, and this over rides the general rule in section 99 where it remains in force for the period ending on the seventieth birthday of the applicants date of birth.

The original legislation was in place when only Old Style paper licences were introduced which did not expire until 70th birthday. The subsequent amendments were to take into account legislation in relation to photo card licences.

Joe Horner I agree the legislation makes reference to 'in force', 'not in force' however in layman's terms or plain English, and referred to by the DVLA in consumer publications/website content etc, reference is made to valid/invalid.

I too would be interested in hearing whether there have been any prosecutions, I very much doubt they have, as is is not actively enforced.

My responses here are not meant to offend anyone just because my responses may be different to yours. It is a forum for discussion and debate.

Joe to clarify my comment on Valid Licence and Entitlement to drive, as this did not convey the message I wanted to.

It should say

you have a right to drive the categories vehicles (generally until you are 70) on your licence provided you have a valid (in force) licence.

If you take a step back and think of original legislation bought in when there was only a paper licence and subsequent legislation bought in for photo card licences you can clearly see differences.

FredL

...and referred to by the DVLA in consumer publications/website content etc, reference is made to valid/invalid.

Can you provide a link to this on the DVLA website? (the earlier pdf link you provided doesn't work)

desperation_2

FredL wrote: »

Can you provide a link to this on the DVLA website? (the earlier pdf link you provided doesn't work)

Here's one

https://www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence

Specific wording

You must renew a photocard licence every 10 years - you’ll receive a reminder before your current licence ends. Your new licence will be valid from the date your application is approved not from the expiry date of your current licence.

also

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/motorists-reminded-of-the-importance-in-renewing-their-photocard-driving-licences

Also

http://www.yourdrivinglicence.co.uk/what-happens-if-driving-licence-has-expired.html

Paradigm

desperation wrote: »

However

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 amended Section 99
(2A) Where in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force after the last day of the administrative validity period, the holder of the licence must nevertheless surrender the licence and its counterpart to the Secretary of State not later than that day.

If you do not you do not have an 'in force' (valid) licence as you have not surrendered it, as required, and this over rides the general rule in section 99 where it remains in force for the period ending on the seventieth birthday of the applicants date of birth.

But the licence remains in force/valid as the bit in red states. I agree that the photo should be updated & that not to do so is an offence but it's a seperate offence, the "licence to drive" is unaffected.

desperation wrote: »

The original legislation was in place when only Old Style paper licences were introduced which did not expire until 70th birthday. The subsequent amendments were to take into account legislation in relation to photo card licences.

Agreed, that is why the amendment uses the words "administrative validity" to differentiate between the old paper licence & the photocard

desperation wrote: »

My responses here are not meant to offend anyone just because my responses may be different to yours. It is a forum for discussion and debate.

No offence taken here at all

desperation wrote: »

you have a right to drive the categories vehicles (generally until you are 70) on your licence provided you have a valid (in force) licence.

If you take a step back and think of original legislation bought in when there was only a paper licence and subsequent legislation bought in for photo card licences you can clearly see differences.

There is a difference however the amendment regarding photo licences has been carefully worded so as not to affect the 70th birthday clause.

Many people (myself included) read this stuff & add their own interpretation/understanding. If the expiry of the photograph meant that the driving licence was "invalid" the law would say so but it doesn't, it actually states that the opposite is the case (bit in red)

desperation_2

But the licence remains in force/valid as the bit in red states. I agree that the photo should be updated & that not to do so is an offence but it's a seperate offence, the "licence to drive" is unaffected.

Agree, however, you have to surrender it for it to remain in force, if you do not surrender not later than the date of expiry, you cannot meet the provision of this section of the amendment.