Cowboy builders awful job means house falling down

mezelks

Hi all,
I've never really made a post like this but here goes...
In the summer of 2011, we had two local lads do some work on our circa 300yr old cottage. The job was to take off the old render on the roadside gable end wall (3 stories and right on the road), then to hack out the old pointing and repoint with a lime mix.
The job cost us 4 1/2 grand, and cash for me was the easiest way to pay them (nothing dodgy, they were paid in installments and just found it easier).
The main guy, although an equal partnership, let's call him Bob, wrote receipts for all the work and for each amount of cash I paid him. I can't find those ruddy receipts now though, typically.
Anyway, on the 30th December I noticed a huge puddle on the 1ft deep window sill in our first floor main bedroom. I saw drips coming from the plasterboard above the sill and help a towel up to dab them. Then it came crashing down. Plasterboard, wood and bits of rubble. Then I cried. My stepdad is a chartered surveyor and he came over and said it was a very poor pointing job that clearly hadn't gone deep enough. It's only now we can see the other side we can see how ripped off we were! It's coming in above the lintel in a fairly large patch.

This opinion has been echoed by another builder. I've spoken to Bob who said it must be the lintel. He didn't have a response when I asked how the water would come in through the lintel to travel up eight inches and then drip back down. Bob has said in text (hard copy proof) that he doesn't have any paperwork on the job. When I asked Did you not declare it?! He hasn't replied.
So my problem is this... the window has been getting steadily worse since the day it happened and needs sorting asap. I have a stone specialist coming over on Sunday to give me the full low down on how crap a job it really was. Bob seems as though he won't stump up, so where do I stand? Citizen's advice? Small claims court? I've heard it only costs £25 to file a case but as I'm such an idiot, would anything stand without my 'receipts'?
Once the stone specialist has quoted me, should I sit down with Bob and say that unless he pays for it I'll get a ccj on him. At the moment I'm so angry that even if he doesn't have the money to pay me, at least he'll have a ccj against him and he'll be further up the creek without a paddle than me. Spite is petty but I can't help it at the moment!
My Dad has said he and his wife can take out a loan on our behalf and us pay them back (we took a loan out last year for new windows, fireplace gutting and new second hand car, it ends in two years but as I'm on a zero hours contract, even though I earn in excess of £1,100 a month, there's no 'guarantee' I can pay anything back)
Has anyone got any advice? Apart from pray he stumps up when threatened with court!!

Thanks all for reading this far!

Mary

teneighty

I cannot quite see how this shallow repointing is causing the water penetration.


I suspect it was the removal of the render that has caused the problem. Depending on the type of stone and construction it can be very porous which is why it is often rendered.

mezelks

The lime pointing was poorly mixed and only done two inches deepbon stones that are eight inches deep. I have since discovered that the guys had never pointed before, let alone pointed in lime-a difficult material to use if you don't know how to use it.

Mary

retepetsir

You really must find those receipts first, then I'd suggest going down the CAB route.

mezelks

Am I completely stuck if I can't find those receipts? I can't prove they did the work, but I live in a small village and everybody saw them do the work (it was summer and they are very nice looking lads so I had several requests to come over for a cuppa from lots of the women in the village!!)
Any chance without them? I have a vague recollection of binning them only a couple of months ago-just before the rain started grrrr.

Mary

warmhands.coldheart

You've paid £4500 in Cash to a guy to repoint your house in lime when he's had no experience of doing it before. hmmmmmmmmmmmm Sorry, I'd be feeling quite silly now if I were you.


Re-Pointing is exactly that, the pointing so to say he's only done 2" deep. how deep would you want him to go???? a rough guide on pointing is you go in 2~2.5 times as deep as the width of the joint I'd imagine 2" (50mm) would be more than deep enough... Can't comment on the mixing of the lime though.....


I agree also with teneighty. chances are the render was on their for a reason....


Personally I can't see you getting anywhere with the builder unless you sit down, talk to him nicely and give him the opportunity to rectify the problem even if you may have to agree to split the costs... Going in all guns blazing throwing accusations around and using threatening language will get you nowhere.....

DaftyDuck

Given the time since the job, given the lack of receipt (and any written rather than implicit guarantee), and given that the repointing may not be the sole contributor to the problem, I don't think you can really chase this productively.

Without the receipts it'd be difficult to prove what work was actually intended to be carried out. As warmhands says, repointing is a surface issue and, although it will obviously affect water penetration, a poor repointing job alone isn't going to allow masses of water to penetrate.

The old render was probably sufficient to keep the water out. You asked for the render to be removed, and this was done. 2" is plenty sufficient for repointing, although quality of work may obviously be poor. You may well feel it's all the builder's fault; it may well not be.

Frankly, I think you have to chalk this up to experience and have a new builder (surely stepdad as a surveyor can recommend some) come and identify the problem & sort it out.

Edit: NO real basis for this, but just a personal feeling... If you did bin the receipts only a couple of months ago, didn't you do so because you felt that they were no longer useful, that any implied warranty in the work had now gone?

macman

You employed 'Bob' and his pal on the cheap because he was happy to take cash payments? What building work experience did Bob have, and what enquiries did you make about his ability to do the job?
You don't need receipts to take him to the county court, but it'll be your word against his, and your case to prove, not his to disprove, if he's happy to perjure himself. With everything based on word of mouth and text messages, it's immeasurably more difficult to prove your case. And, if there is no money to recover, you'll get nothing back anyway.
You would also need a professional report that demonstrates that the job was not done competently, and that'll have to be paid for by you upfront.

mezelks

Not the answers I was hoping for but half what I was expecting. The stone specialist has said they should have used similar to a mastik gun to get the pointing deep in.
Yes Duck, I binned them thinking over two years had passed so if anything was wrong I'd have seen by now, but this weather lately is more extreme than the house has dealt with since the job was done.
The render was removed because it was blown and was cracked and falling off in places. I have no idea how long it had been on there as we only bought the house in early 2011.
Gutted to say the least but hopefully the stone specialist can help this weekend and it won't be as bad as my imagination during my sleepless nights!

mezelks

Thanks macman. Who would the profess report have to come from? I have my stepdad as a chartered surveyor who can legally testify in court (can't remember the term for that) and several builders around here. Or does it need to be someone from eg an insurance firm?
On that note, is it worth trying my buildings insurance? When I first looked I assumed it was the lintel as I didn't think it could be the pointing. I called them and they said I'm not covered as the lintel should have been replaced before it got to leaking stage. Something about preventative measures. Surely now, when repointing work has been recently done, that counts as a preventative measure? Worth claiming?

Thank you all for your replies

mezelks

Oh and the wall is Cotswold stone, and lime was recommended