Coal prices

A._Badger

macman wrote: »

But who says there has been an increase? And given that some deliveries might require a 50 mile round trip and some 5 miles, how do you actually compare prices except to your own address?

That's a fairly ridiculous argument. 'Who says there has been a price rise?' I do - because I am being charged more, both for the delivered product and when it's purchased from retail sources like garages and depots. As there is just one major supplier in a large swathe of Southern England (Corralls) that is an awful lot of people who have been subjected to a price increase.

Corralls inter alia is owned by the massive Rudrum Holdings - an international coal trader ( http://www.rudrumholdings.co.uk/first_level_pages/coal_trading_division/coal_trading_division.html ) , so the company is directly benefiting from significantly lower prices.

The lengths some people will go to on MSE forums to defend the indefensible is amazing. If world wheat prices were down by a third and bread had risen in price, no doubt there would still be someone trying to defend it.

A._Badger

mardatha wrote: »

Although I live in the border hills, every coalman we've had gets their coal from the same depot - Monktonhall in Edinburgh. I suppose they get it from Leith Docks. So we're limited to choice in the coalmen who will come away out here and in the price they charge. I just wondered what it was like in other places, but it all seems much the same. Coal fires and windy weather don't mix very well and you go through a lot, whatever kind of fire or stove you use. Nevmind, roll on summer eh!

You've put your finger on part of the problem there - that as the use of solid fuels has diminished, a small handful of companies has managed to squeeze out the competition and exploit the remaining business.

As with LPG, the major players who now control the business can more or less do what they like.

macman

A._Badger wrote: »

That's a fairly ridiculous argument. 'Who says there has been a price rise?' I do - because I am being charged more, both for the delivered product and when it's purchased from retail sources like garages and depots. As there is just one major supplier in a large swathe of Southern England (Corralls) that is an awful lot of people who have been subjected to a price increase.

Corralls inter alia is owned by the massive Rudrum Holdings - an international coal trader ( http://www.rudrumholdings.co.uk/first_level_pages/coal_trading_division/coal_trading_division.html ) , so the company is directly benefiting from significantly lower prices.

The lengths some people will go to on MSE forums to defend the indefensible is amazing. If world wheat prices were down by a third and bread had risen in price, no doubt there would still be someone trying to defend it.

Most users of this site do not buy coal and have no idea of the current or past price-myself included. Nowhere on this thread have you stated what price you were paying a year ago/ 6 months ago/now. Without that info, how can there be any sensible debate?
My other point was that comparing what you pay in S. England to what someone else pays in the Scottish Borders or Yorkshire is equally futile, because, just as with other fuels delivered by road rather than in bulk, there will always be big regional differences.
Coal is a declining market, therefore there are inevitably going to be fewer wholesalers and retailers competing. Has your coal price gone up as much as my gas price though?

mardatha

I think everything has gone up the same, if one thing is any cheaper the suppliers look round and see that they're missing out on some profit and they up their product to the same level.
Greed and Profit, the 2 gods of Britain 2014.

highrisklowreturn

Unfortunately greed and profit are the reasons why GB is stinking rich - I've never heard of a people get rich on altruism or kindness, or reading the guardian.




If the global coal price has come down, which I doubt, it is I suspect being held artificially aloft in the same way oil has been, namely by stockpiling by a dozen or so import majors. I was getting coal wholesale all last year and got a nice letter a few months back telling me all major coals were going up 16 quid a tonne, ie 40p a bag, where another wholesaler wasn't changing their price at all. That said, the other wholesaler was slightly more expensive on bituminous and smokeless eggs, and even on anthracite and blended, and cheaper on wood, turf and slack. Oh, and their boys used o nick a few bags for a tenner for you

A._Badger

macman wrote: »

Most users of this site do not buy coal and have no idea of the current or past price-myself included. Nowhere on this thread have you stated what price you were paying a year ago/ 6 months ago/now. Without that info, how can there be any sensible debate?
My other point was that comparing what you pay in S. England to what someone else pays in the Scottish Borders or Yorkshire is equally futile, because, just as with other fuels delivered by road rather than in bulk, there will always be big regional differences.
Coal is a declining market, therefore there are inevitably going to be fewer wholesalers and retailers competing. Has your coal price gone up as much as my gas price though?

This is absurdity mounting on absurdity. I am not trying to compare prices between the South of England and anywhere else. I am simply reporting that prices in a large area of the South of England from the near-monopoly supplier have increased, while wholesale prices have dropped by about a third.. If they have not increased in all areas, then that makes your point about the cost of transport even more redundant, as it is a near-identical identical cost nationwide.

If international crude oil prices had dropped by a third, you can be damn sure there would be an outcry if petrol prices hadn't followed suit.

pauletruth

our price has gone up twice this autumn. it was 200 odd quid last year per tonne now its upto 340 an increase of roughly 65 quid or 1.50 per bag. were in shetland.

macman

A._Badger wrote: »

This is absurdity mounting on absurdity. I am not trying to compare prices between the South of England and anywhere else. I am simply reporting that prices in a large area of the South of England from the near-monopoly supplier have increased, while wholesale prices have dropped by about a third.. If they have not increased in all areas, then that makes your point about the cost of transport even more redundant, as it is a near-identical identical cost nationwide.

If international crude oil prices had dropped by a third, you can be damn sure there would be an outcry if petrol prices hadn't followed suit.

So why can't you post the actual price difference then, as previously requested, so this can be put in context for those of use who don't buy the stuff? I am not disputing that you are paying more, just asking you to state how much it has gone up, and over what period?
Comparing coal with petrol prices is absurd, since fuel duty and VAT makes up about 60% of the price of fuel, unlike coal where you only pay VAT. Without duty and VAT, fuel would be about 60p per litre.
A fall in the crude spot rate for oil of one third won't result in a one third reduction in the retail price for the same reason.

A._Badger

macman wrote: »

So why can't you post the actual price difference then, as previously requested,

Because I threw away the printed A4 pricelist in July when it arrived, due to the wholly unjustified price rise and my determination to buy from a cheaper source.

I can, however, confirm that the retail price at a local garage (from which I eventually bought about one metric tonne of smokeless as they were cheaper than their supplier (!)) has increased its price by about £1 per 25kg sack.

Your point about fuel tax is nonsense, but I suspect you already know that. A drop of 1/3 in raw material costs cannot possibly justify a price increase - however much you fiddle the figures.

macman

So perhaps someone else can post some actual evidence of the recent increases in the last 12 months, rather than just what you can remember?
Where did I say that a drop in the crude price justifies an increase? I said that a drop in the crude price won't produce an equivalent drop in the retail price. Because most of the retail price is duty.