Horsey money saving hints? (merged)

orlao

Interesting discussion:beer:

Katy83
I have had some (near) bad experiences with some, not all people who have answered the one and only ad I ever placed. Some of the main points were "not novice ride" "adult only yard" "confident rider" "stay on present yard" - the best call I got was from some bloke who wanted to borrow (didn't understand loan as far as horses are concerned) him so his fiancee could ride him to her wedding:eek:on that horse she would have gone via A&E, tons of 13/14/15 year old, any amount of mothers wondering if he was suitable for children, would I transport him to Bradford, Devon, Scotland and so on. A couple of people that I allowed to try him fessed up at the last minute that they had only ridden as children or riding schools etc....I got a little cynical:D So I've always gone with personal recommendation since.

KatP

I can see your point if you are improving a horse for someone but I've always paid for expert help when I've needed it.
To me a share is just that - you share the work, costs as well as the fun parts. If you don't think that you should pay because you do some of the work remember that as an owner I've not only invested the lump sum to buy the horse but that I also pay the day to day costs and do the work when a sharer isn't around.My 2 horses cost me £4k last year, that's after the sharers contribution is taken off and mine are kept fairly cheaply for my area.....
I was also up at 4am this morning to do them and I've just got after a full day at work and doing them on my way home..not complaining as it's my choice but I don't think people are doing me a favour when I allow them to ride mine;)

rachiee

I use the internet for most of my horse stuff. I buy all sorts of there and i use Farmway for rugs as my mums partner works there and gets things cost price

Katy83

orlao wrote: »

the best call I got was from some bloke who wanted to borrow (didn't understand loan as far as horses are concerned) him so his fiancee could ride him to her wedding:eek:on that horse she would have gone via A&E

:eek::eek::eek:

That's awful!!

Orlao, I see your point about it doing you a favour. I certainly wouldn't mind paying some sort of contribution towards the horse. I suppose both parties would have to be happy with the arrangement - sounds like it is about give and take.

4am! :eek: You poor thing! DIY livery I take it?

Do either of you use a share agreement? Or do you tend to play it by ear?

orlao

Katy83 wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek:

That's awful!!

Orlao, I see your point about it doing you a favour. I certainly wouldn't mind paying some sort of contribution towards the horse. I suppose both parties would have to be happy with the arrangement - sounds like it is about give and take.

4am! :eek: You poor thing! DIY livery I take it?

Do either of you use a share agreement? Or do you tend to play it by ear?

I have to admit that once I got over the shock of the phone call I had a vision of my silly sec D ruining a wedding by dumping a bride in her dress and it made me giggle:o. Mind you, my pony would love to do something like that except he'd hog the photos, hes such a tartlet:rotfl::rotfl:

Mine are on DIY grass livery so I check them in the morning and dog walk at the same time....I try and avoid stabling as the Sec D stresses if in and the pony is slightly arthritic so being out is better for his joints. It's also a LOT cheaper than DIY as I don't have to pay bedding and feed costs - hay is included in the livery.

I have a share agreement as advised by my insurance company mainly to protect myself (and them!) from being sued. sadly that's the way the world is now. All it says is that they have to have their own riders insurance, how much a week/month the share will cost, what they are allowed/not allowed to do and that everything they do is at their own risk. I've added a clause about H&S on the yard and the importance of following the yard rules at the yard owners request...

Katie-Kat-Kins

I think whether you have a share agreement probably depends upon what you both want and intend for the share.

As I said both of my shares were more about me helping the owners out with exercise/stable work as and when required with no money changing hands. So I've not had agreements in writing, and I think that element of formality may have defeated the purpose.

orlao, I have no objection in principle to paying a contribution, but if I'm going to pay it should be a genuine *share* and I should have some element of freedom and choice about what I do. At the end of the day if you don't have enough time for doing your horse and/or exercising him as much as you would like then why should you be paid for someone to help you out??? The shares I've done have involved exercising stabled horses when the owner didn't have time and keeping them ticking over, I was always grateful for the ride, but as I was also doing a days worth of stable duties and providing the owner with a service (keeping the horse fit, giving her a day off, etc) I felt this was a fair trade. Don't get me wrong if the horse was at full livery and didn't need the work then I'd be getting purely the luxury of a free ride so why not pay. Also if it is a genuine share where I can do (within reason) what I like with the horse and have an element of say then fair enough that I pay a reasonable contribution. I'd want that sort of agreement in writing though with fair notice periods and first refusal if the owner chose to sell, I wouldn't want to be investing time and money just to have the rug whipped out from under my feet.

It really surprises me on forums (I go on HHO too) that owners expect a financial payment when they need help with their horse as it is quite contrary to what I have experienced in real life.

I have ridden for a friend while she was on holiday (only two days riding and minimal work just a bit of feeding) and was actually bought a thank you present! It was no hassle to me, the horse was put from part to full livery for the week the family was away and I did two days riding and they had her booked to be schooled by their instructor one day, then she got a couple of extra days off. The mother of the pony's owner was incredibly grateful (I guess it was cheaper for her to spend £20 on a gift for me than to pay the livery yard to exercise the pony) but it was a pleasure for me to get a free hack!

At the end of the day, if you wanted me to look after your child once a week so you could enjoy some social time you'd pay me not the other way round.

If you want livery yard to muck out etc for you so you don't have to go down one day you have to pay them, if you want them to exercise your horse for you then you have to pay, even just for exercise not schooling.

If you expect your sharer to contribute to costs then your sharer should be getting a genuine share in your horse not just being a cheap alternative to part/full livery.

trudij

I think its a very difficult thing to work out properly - to my mind,share the horse, share the work, share the costs. Quite what happens with the ownership of the horse is something that would have to be thought out and discussed properly. When you think that shoes are about £60 a set, and grass livery (well - I pay!) is £65 a month - and thats before insurance, feed,vets fees (worming,vaccs and teeth annually is about the £140 mark,before you get anything else that may need doing!) and saddlery is taken into account - even without the money in the tack/rugs etc,and the horse, you would be talking about £2000 a year. So IMO a sharer who is asked to pay £20 a week, SHOULD be allowed to do pretty much whatever they like with the horse,within reason(that reason being veterinary things or limitations for the horse!). The problems appear when you both want to ride at the same time or go to the same shows or competitions with the horse !!! A girl I know has the agreement that a "sharer" does the horse completely 3 days a week,(twice during the week and one of the weekend days) pays for the hard feed and shoes, and on the three days they have the horse,they can do whatever they want with it - and its all open to discussion if there is a competition one of them wants to do.At the end of the day - its still my friends horse, so what she says goes - but they talk a lot, both love the horse, and it works brilliantly for them.If I could find similar, Id be there like a shot.
Having said that - the "sharers" who only want to ride, and arent prepared to do any of the work,should be prepared to pay a contribution as well. I think theres just a difference between sharing and riding - and thats where a lot of the problems arrive - people have different definitions of sharing!!
Ive only shared once before - and I was very lucky there, it was with my friends daughter,and they insisted on buying his shoes-though I was more than happy for her to ride him whenever she wanted,I still rode him a lot and wasnt really missing out on anything so was happy to still pay his bills!!I did all his stable work, and payed everything else - as far as I was concerned she was getting her confidence back on him,and he was having a great time with us both!! She took him to Pony Club, we shared him at shows on the odd occasion there were things that both of us wanted to do, and I took them to big shows as well.It worked really well, and i think in two years, we only twice wanted him at the same time to ride out at home !!

orlao

KatP wrote: »

I think whether you have a share agreement probably depends upon what you both want and intend for the share.


orlao, I have no objection in principle to paying a contribution, but if I'm going to pay it should be a genuine *share* and I should have some element of freedom and choice about what I do. At the end of the day if you don't have enough time for doing your horse and/or exercising him as much as you would like then why should you be paid for someone to help you out??? The shares I've done have involved exercising stabled horses when the owner didn't have time and keeping them ticking over, I was always grateful for the ride, but as I was also doing a days worth of stable duties and providing the owner with a service (keeping the horse fit, giving her a day off, etc) I felt this was a fair trade. Don't get me wrong if the horse was at full livery and didn't need the work then I'd be getting purely the luxury of a free ride so why not pay. Also if it is a genuine share where I can do (within reason) what I like with the horse and have an element of say then fair enough that I pay a reasonable contribution. I'd want that sort of agreement in writing though with fair notice periods and first refusal if the owner chose to sell, I wouldn't want to be investing time and money just to have the rug whipped out from under my feet.

If you expect your sharer to contribute to costs then your sharer should be getting a genuine share in your horse not just being a cheap alternative to part/full livery.

As I said above, the agreement is recommended by my insurance company....it means that anybody handling or riding my horses on a regular basis also is covered by my public liability cover.

This isn't meant to be rude:o but if you want to have a "genuine " say you could always go and do what I've done which is go and buy your own horse (or take one on full loan) which means that you do have the final say but with that comes the 365 days a year commitment both financially and in your time which as I'm sure you know doesn't just include stable duties.....most of the people who have shared mine are still friends and have only moved on to buy their own horses. None of them would share theirs for free on a long term basis, I'm not talking about someone occasionally riding out...I'm talking about me not being able to ride on a nice summers evening because the sharer rode in the afternoon which is where I compromise. Not complaining btw:p

A sharer can just walk away as and when suits them, most people share because they cannot afford or don't want the commitment of a horse full time, as an owner the only way I can walk away is if I sell (that doesn't happen btw, mine have always had a home for life) or as a more drastic measure PTS. I found the money up front to buy them, if a sharer decides not to ride during the week, I lunge or school in the dark during winter, I take the time off work/use up holidays for vet visits, farrier, dentist, chiropractor and a sharer doesn't pay any extra if one of those bills are higher than expected, I do! If a sharer has family crisis, flu, overtime, they (hopefully) call me and I step in....when they happen to me I juggle!

Maybe you're confusing a share (fairly informal, minimal commitment) with a part loan (usually half and half responsibility in money time and work)?
As a loaner you would get a lot more say but you also get the bills including saddlery replacement, vet bills etc split down the middle and please remember that if the owner bought a "made" horse that it wouldn't have been cheap, if it was cheap they have put blood, sweat and tears into making it a suitable share horse.....they have EARNED the right to have the final say.

trudij

If you're in Essex and only pay £65pm livery please please tell me where it is:D

trudij

lol - sorry no, Im in Dorset !!!

Katie-Kat-Kins

trudij wrote: »

I think its a very difficult thing to work out properly - to my mind,share the horse, share the work, share the costs. Quite what happens with the ownership of the horse is something that would have to be thought out and discussed properly. When you think that shoes are about £60 a set, and grass livery (well - I pay!) is £65 a month - and thats before insurance, feed,vets fees (worming,vaccs and teeth annually is about the £140 mark,before you get anything else that may need doing!) and saddlery is taken into account - even without the money in the tack/rugs etc,and the horse, you would be talking about £2000 a year. So IMO a sharer who is asked to pay £20 a week, SHOULD be allowed to do pretty much whatever they like with the horse,within reason(that reason being veterinary things or limitations for the horse!). Exactly what I have been trying to say. The problems appear when you both want to ride at the same time or go to the same shows or competitions with the horse !!! A girl I know has the agreement that a "sharer" does the horse completely 3 days a week,(twice during the week and one of the weekend days) pays for the hard feed and shoes, and on the three days they have the horse,they can do whatever they want with it - and its all open to discussion if there is a competition one of them wants to do.At the end of the day - its still my friends horse, so what she says goes - but they talk a lot, both love the horse, and it works brilliantly for them.If I could find similar, Id be there like a shot.
Having said that - the "sharers" who only want to ride, I've never been one of those and wouldn't be, maybe that is why I'm averse to paying if I'm prepared to do my share of the work and arent prepared to do any of the work,should be prepared to pay a contribution as well. I think theres just a difference between sharing and riding - and thats where a lot of the problems arrive - people have different definitions of sharing!! Definitely a problem, there is such a range from situations where there is shared ownership to situations where someone just rides a covers a couple of days for the owner. Add in loans, part loans etc and it is confusing to know what people are talking about.
Ive only shared once before - and I was very lucky there, it was with my friends daughter,and they insisted on buying his shoes-though I was more than happy for her to ride him whenever she wanted,I still rode him a lot and wasnt really missing out on anything so was happy to still pay his bills!! Agree - if it isn't costing you extra and you aren't loosing out on time that you would normally spend with your horse then there isn't much need for the sharer to pay, though I would expect to do the usual stable jobs when I rode. I did all his stable work, and payed everything else - as far as I was concerned she was getting her confidence back on him,and he was having a great time with us both!! She took him to Pony Club, we shared him at shows on the odd occasion there were things that both of us wanted to do, and I took them to big shows as well.It worked really well, and i think in two years, we only twice wanted him at the same time to ride out at home !!

Think you've hit the nail on the head there trudij

Katie-Kat-Kins

Orlao - I'm not trying to pick a fight or critisise your way of doing things, most of my comments are aimed as advice/food for thought for Katy.

orlao wrote: »

As I said above, the agreement is recommended by my insurance company....it means that anybody handling or riding my horses on a regular basis also is covered by my public liability cover. Fair enough, all I said was whether an agreement is necessary depends upon the circumstances, certainly if it is recommended by insurers then do it, it wouldn't put me off a share, but as a sharer I wouldn't be too worried about not having an agreement unless I was paying a fairly significant amount toward the share or was putting a lot of work in or improving the horse. Incidentally, I have my own public liability and personal accident insurance.

This isn't meant to be rude:o but if you want to have a "genuine " say you could always go and do what I've done which is go and buy your own horse Exactly what I'm saving for at the moment - I'm not actually actively looking for a share and never have done because I find it just as frustrating as riding in a riding school as I don't have the control I want. (or take one on full loan) which means that you do have the final say but with that comes the 365 days a year commitment both financially and in your time which as I'm sure you know doesn't just include stable duties...I'm well aware of the level of comitment involved, that is why I haven't bought my own in the past, because I want to be sure I am well equipped and prepared in every way, including having the time and money, I think the longer you are around horses the more you realise how overwhelming the responsibility is and the more cautious you become. It frightens me how inexperienced some people are when they take on their own horse, and how little contingecy they have in time/money for things going wrong ..most of the people who have shared mine are still friends and have only moved on to buy their own horses. None of them would share theirs for free on a long term basis, I'm not talking about someone occasionally riding out...I'm talking about me not being able to ride on a nice summers evening because the sharer rode in the afternoon which is where I compromise. Not complaining btw:p Fair enough, if you involving someone else in your horse involves you loosing out with your horse then I can see the compromise, and the justification of a charge. My "shares" have been situations where the horse would have been getting, bored/stiff/wound up standing in its box all day if I hadn't been involved. I would also have gladly stepped aside (and did occasionally) if the owner had said actually I can make it down today so you can't ride.

A sharer can just walk away as and when suits them, as a sharer I wouldn't walk away, I'd at leats give notice most people share because they cannot afford or don't want the commitment of a horse full time, as an owner the only way I can walk away is if I sell (that doesn't happen btw, mine have always had a home for life) or as a more drastic measure PTS. I found the money up front to buy them, if a sharer decides not to ride during the week, I lunge or school in the dark during winter, I take the time off work/use up holidays for vet visits, farrier, dentist, chiropractor and a sharer doesn't pay any extra if one of those bills are higher than expected, I do! If a sharer has family crisis, flu, overtime, they (hopefully) call me and I step in....when they happen to me I juggle! Don't you call your sharer in a crisis?? As a sharer if the owner called me and had flu/overtime/crisis or holiday I would have happily done extra.

Maybe you're confusing a share (fairly informal, minimal commitment) with a part loan (usually half and half responsibility in money time and work)? I think this is generally the problem, that the terms are becomming confused, and there aren't enough terms for the type of arrangements. I used to understand a share as being more like what would now be termed part loan but probably with shared ownership too, that was what was explained in many of the old horse textbooks, and i do know a couple of people with this type of share, the horse belongs to both of them and they have an equal say. A full loan is obviously when everything bar ownership transfers to the loanee. But I wonder if a lot of what people call shares now might be more accurately termed part loans or part leases..... I think it is actually an issue that people have different definitions and can lead to very different expectations and misunderstandings. To be honest when I was sharing I never called it a share, i just referred to it as helping out......

Anyway, I doubt I'll make it out of the riding school until I finally decide to buy my own. Well OUR own, I'd be sharing with my husband, and by sharing I mean 50/50 ownership, responsibility financial and time contribution

I'm getting sick of putting time effort and emotional involvement into other peoples horses for them to reap (or waste) the rewards, it is incredibly disheartening.

I nearly bought the section D I shared, luckily she changed her mind about selling, because a couple of months later I was made redundant, and would have been very worried about how I'd pay for his keep. That share convinced me that I could keep a horse on assisted DIY which was affordable, sadly the new job takes up more time, and I also happily met my husband and moved in with him which took up even more time so now I'm waiting until I can afford part livery.......

So I'll be buying a lottery ticket tonight.....

:beer:
As a loaner you would get a lot more say but you also get the bills including saddlery replacement, vet bills etc split down the middle that rather depends upon the agreement that you have with the owner loans vary a lot and please remember that if the owner bought a "made" horse that it wouldn't have been cheap, if it was cheap they have put blood, sweat and tears into making it a suitable share horse.....they have EARNED the right to have the final say. I appreciate the work that goes into getting a horse "right" but not all sharers are only interested in a ready made bombproof type. The first "share" I did involved a TB ex-racer who had done no work since coming off the race track although had been turned away for a few years at stud. She was far from ready made. The section D was already a cracking pony club pony with bags of potential (not that I was allowed to take advantage of that - I once asked if they would mind me competing him at a club show taking place on the yard where he lived if the owner wasn't riding him, she refused and said she was going to compete him, but I was on the yard from 8am until the end of the show competing a school horse and she didn't show up.) but she was planning to sell him and as the YO commented to get the best sale price, he needed to be fit and working regularly and getting out and competing regularly, just keeping him fit was helping her to sell him. My riding instructor commented how much progress he was making in his dressage and jumping with me. So I am by no means expecting to take advantage of someone elses hard work.

trudij

If you're in Essex and only pay £65pm livery please please tell me where it is:D

Anyway, sorry that was a bit of a long one.

I don't really disagree with what you say, I just think there is a huge breadth of types of agreement, types of horse and types of owner/sharer and the situations vary, no one size fits all and payment is not always appropriate. Some owners need to recognise that they can get a very good deal with a sharer, although I appreciate that some sharers are nightmares!

Oh well I should get off this thread, and stay away from HHO too, it is just making me more dissatisfied, as if I wasn't enough already. :o