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TRV Continuously Shutting Radiator Off
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Posts: 186 Forumite
Hello,
Sorry for the long post, but I think detailed information will help you in providing maximum input!
I live in a 3 bedroom, 2 floor (Ground, 1st, 2nd) end terraced house, with 7 Gas Radiators in the property. The house is 30 years old.
Previously we had an old system where there was no separate control for Heating and Hot Water; so whenever the boiler was turned on, it used to heat up the water and the gas radiators at the same time.
That boiler was a Micron Glow-Worm 50FF, which we had for over 10 years.
All the Radiators had TRVs on them, and they used to work perfectly well. The property did not have a Room Thermostat though.
Recently (beginning of last week), we had a brand new Baxi 18HE A Boiler installed, along with 3 x radiators (the 3 being replaced were old and had pin holes in them), and new pipe work ( 2 primaries), which meant that Heating and Hot Water could be separated, and they could be controlled separately, on behalf of an Energy company by subcontractors, as part of the Government’s ECO legislation.
So the new system we have now is a Y Plan Sealed system (although with the old system we had an Expansion Vessel up in the loft).
The water and heating has been absolutely fine and we have familiarised ourselves with the new system without any problems, including the Room Thermostat.
Just to clarify please, the problem we are having is not related to the Room Thermostat, the Settings of the Digital Programmer etc, or our lack of understanding of the Room Thermostat, Thermostatic Radiator Valves or anything else.
2 out of the 3 new radiators are working fine as are the other 4 (old) radiators.
However ,there is a problem with one radiator (TRV), which was newly installed. The TRV on the radiator was brand new too.
When this radiator was turned on, just like the other radiators it came on and got warm, but used to then shut off permanently, without coming back on, while the other radiators continued to stay on throughout.
This particular radiator after reaching a certain temperature/warmth, just shut off and stayed off; even for hours without coming back on, while the Heating was still On and the other radiators remained on and remained warm.
If the TRV head is removed from this Radiator and Heating turned on, the radiator remains. I recently monitored it closely and kept the Heating on for a continuous 18 hours, and this radiator, without TRV head on, remained on and hot for this whole time.
When the Engineers that carried the work returned to our house they were baffled, saying a radiator should either come on or it shouldn’t, and to go off after a while (within 30 mins or so) after coming on didn’t make sense. They also realised that none of the other radiators were doing this, and only this particular radiator was showing this fault.
They changed the TRV Head and screwed it on loosely (which I later realised), making it appear that everything was working fine as the radiator stayed on constantly and didn’t shut off. But after I turned the TRV Head on and off, it came off, due to not being securely screwed on.
So, if the TRV Head is left off the radiator completely, the radiator stays on constantly as soon as the Heating is switched on. If the TRV Head is put on loosely – when you can just about turn it on and off before it would eventually fall off – the radiator would stay on.
I lost confidence in the Engineers that carried out the work, as I found their conduct unprofessional throughout and felt they lacked integrity, especially as they showed little consideration about the fact that I had an elderly and disabled mother in the house.
I invited a friend of mine, who is Gas Safety Registered, to have a look at it, and we both agreed to begin with (I was especially keen to get some clarity and eliminate as many “possible” causes as there may be for this) that it would be a good idea to replace the whole TRV – TRV Head & TRV Body.
I wanted a brand new Danfoss TRV. After draining the radiator etc, he fitted the Danfoss TRV onto this radiator.
It soon became apparent that the radiator with the new Danfoss TRV on it was doing the exact same thing as before – it would come on, and after reaching a warm temperature, it would just shut off and stay off within 30 minutes of being turned on (less really), while the other radiators remained on and remained warm. So, the original (brand new) TVR Head & Body that were fitted to the new radiator in the firt place weren't faulty.
Just want to point out that this radiator in question is on the first floor, just above the Boiler on the ground floor kitchen.
My friend said that he had never come across anything like this.
His “theory” was that the pipes for this radiator were getting particularly hot and so was the radiator, quite quickly due to being directly above the boiler. He said that the Thermostatic Head was obviously “sensing” this temperature, finding it exceedingly hot and shutting the radiator off. He reduced the Heating temperature on the boiler and restricted (closed it quite a bit) the lockshield valve on the opposite side to the TRV. Neither of these things made a difference.
As quite an experienced and well respected Gas Engineer (Gas Safety Registered), he had never come across a situation like this and was at bit of a loss. His final suggestions were to consider replacing it with a Half Turn Valve (non thermostatic), as that will come on and off whenever we want and not be like the current one because of different technology, and looks similar to this:
http://www.homeoutlet.co.uk/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/24095.html?source=gg-gba-pla_24095____29588397054&s_kwcid=PTC!pla!!!57026854986!g!!29588397054&gclid=CNGboNuFmLsCFS3JtAodcSEA-w
His second suggestion was to move the TRV to the other side of the radiator, where the Lockshield is, and switch them around, in relation to something “technical” to do with the return pipe, but there is no guarantee this would work.
Hope you are still with me and I haven’t exhausted you by waffling too much!
*Does anyone know what is going on and why?
*Are the 2 options my friend suggested the only ones available to me?
I’ve been getting quite stressed about everything, which has upset my vulnerable mum too.
Thank you.
Sorry for the long post, but I think detailed information will help you in providing maximum input!
I live in a 3 bedroom, 2 floor (Ground, 1st, 2nd) end terraced house, with 7 Gas Radiators in the property. The house is 30 years old.
Previously we had an old system where there was no separate control for Heating and Hot Water; so whenever the boiler was turned on, it used to heat up the water and the gas radiators at the same time.
That boiler was a Micron Glow-Worm 50FF, which we had for over 10 years.
All the Radiators had TRVs on them, and they used to work perfectly well. The property did not have a Room Thermostat though.
Recently (beginning of last week), we had a brand new Baxi 18HE A Boiler installed, along with 3 x radiators (the 3 being replaced were old and had pin holes in them), and new pipe work ( 2 primaries), which meant that Heating and Hot Water could be separated, and they could be controlled separately, on behalf of an Energy company by subcontractors, as part of the Government’s ECO legislation.
So the new system we have now is a Y Plan Sealed system (although with the old system we had an Expansion Vessel up in the loft).
The water and heating has been absolutely fine and we have familiarised ourselves with the new system without any problems, including the Room Thermostat.
Just to clarify please, the problem we are having is not related to the Room Thermostat, the Settings of the Digital Programmer etc, or our lack of understanding of the Room Thermostat, Thermostatic Radiator Valves or anything else.
2 out of the 3 new radiators are working fine as are the other 4 (old) radiators.
However ,there is a problem with one radiator (TRV), which was newly installed. The TRV on the radiator was brand new too.
When this radiator was turned on, just like the other radiators it came on and got warm, but used to then shut off permanently, without coming back on, while the other radiators continued to stay on throughout.
This particular radiator after reaching a certain temperature/warmth, just shut off and stayed off; even for hours without coming back on, while the Heating was still On and the other radiators remained on and remained warm.
If the TRV head is removed from this Radiator and Heating turned on, the radiator remains. I recently monitored it closely and kept the Heating on for a continuous 18 hours, and this radiator, without TRV head on, remained on and hot for this whole time.
When the Engineers that carried the work returned to our house they were baffled, saying a radiator should either come on or it shouldn’t, and to go off after a while (within 30 mins or so) after coming on didn’t make sense. They also realised that none of the other radiators were doing this, and only this particular radiator was showing this fault.
They changed the TRV Head and screwed it on loosely (which I later realised), making it appear that everything was working fine as the radiator stayed on constantly and didn’t shut off. But after I turned the TRV Head on and off, it came off, due to not being securely screwed on.
So, if the TRV Head is left off the radiator completely, the radiator stays on constantly as soon as the Heating is switched on. If the TRV Head is put on loosely – when you can just about turn it on and off before it would eventually fall off – the radiator would stay on.
I lost confidence in the Engineers that carried out the work, as I found their conduct unprofessional throughout and felt they lacked integrity, especially as they showed little consideration about the fact that I had an elderly and disabled mother in the house.
I invited a friend of mine, who is Gas Safety Registered, to have a look at it, and we both agreed to begin with (I was especially keen to get some clarity and eliminate as many “possible” causes as there may be for this) that it would be a good idea to replace the whole TRV – TRV Head & TRV Body.
I wanted a brand new Danfoss TRV. After draining the radiator etc, he fitted the Danfoss TRV onto this radiator.
It soon became apparent that the radiator with the new Danfoss TRV on it was doing the exact same thing as before – it would come on, and after reaching a warm temperature, it would just shut off and stay off within 30 minutes of being turned on (less really), while the other radiators remained on and remained warm. So, the original (brand new) TVR Head & Body that were fitted to the new radiator in the firt place weren't faulty.
Just want to point out that this radiator in question is on the first floor, just above the Boiler on the ground floor kitchen.
My friend said that he had never come across anything like this.
His “theory” was that the pipes for this radiator were getting particularly hot and so was the radiator, quite quickly due to being directly above the boiler. He said that the Thermostatic Head was obviously “sensing” this temperature, finding it exceedingly hot and shutting the radiator off. He reduced the Heating temperature on the boiler and restricted (closed it quite a bit) the lockshield valve on the opposite side to the TRV. Neither of these things made a difference.
As quite an experienced and well respected Gas Engineer (Gas Safety Registered), he had never come across a situation like this and was at bit of a loss. His final suggestions were to consider replacing it with a Half Turn Valve (non thermostatic), as that will come on and off whenever we want and not be like the current one because of different technology, and looks similar to this:
http://www.homeoutlet.co.uk/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/24095.html?source=gg-gba-pla_24095____29588397054&s_kwcid=PTC!pla!!!57026854986!g!!29588397054&gclid=CNGboNuFmLsCFS3JtAodcSEA-w
His second suggestion was to move the TRV to the other side of the radiator, where the Lockshield is, and switch them around, in relation to something “technical” to do with the return pipe, but there is no guarantee this would work.
Hope you are still with me and I haven’t exhausted you by waffling too much!
*Does anyone know what is going on and why?
*Are the 2 options my friend suggested the only ones available to me?
I’ve been getting quite stressed about everything, which has upset my vulnerable mum too.
Thank you.
0
Comments
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Can you confirm the TRV is on the flow pipe to the radiator?0
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Yes, the above. And can you tell us the actual type of the valve? Like you tell us you had a Micron Glow-Worm 50FF and now you have a Baxi 18HE. But you don't tell us what the valve is.Can you confirm the TRV is on the flow pipe to the radiator?
Almost certainly it is on the wrong side of the radiator, so once it shuts off the pressure keeps it closed. Some valves can be adjusted for the side of the radiator and we might be able to tell you if the adjustment could be made.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
Almost certainly it is on the wrong side of the radiator, so once it shuts off the pressure keeps it closed. Some valves can be adjusted for the side of the radiator and we might be able to tell you if the adjustment could be made.
I think all new model Danfoss TRVs (OP had Danfoss fitted as replacement for original install) are bidirectional e.g. flow selectable
0 -
O.P.: you say the rad is on first floor above kitchen. Is it near the airing cupboard?0
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Ah, yes - missed that in the Great Wall of Text. It looks like the rad has been connected into the HW circuit then - and the bit about the head being left loose is a red herring.I think all new model Danfoss TRVs (OP had Danfoss fitted as replacement for original install) are bidirectional e.g. flow selectableYou might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
The room with "suspect" TRV is not exposed to another heat source.
In fact this radiator (1400 x 450) in the bedroom, which is
about 15 sqm in size, is right next to the window (directly below
window ledge). It's at the end of the room, centrally located.
I don't know if this information helps, but this radiator
is one of the 3 that was replaced (1400 x 450), and the previous radiator was about 1400 x 600 in size and 30 years old.They put this size in for their own convenience
really, as the subcontractors including material order/delivery
was all over the place.
Although, the system (pipe work), boiler and size of radiator (don't know if relevant) previously
was different, in the same room, under the same conditions, we never
had any problems with the old radiator or the TRV - always worked
perfectly without any problems.
Also a 3 Port Valve has been fitted above the new Baxi boiler.
The Airing cupboard is on the 2nd floor (top floor, opposite side of the bedroom in question). This is where the Cylinder is. The Automatic
Bypass that was fitted is in here as well.
The new Danfoss TRV that has been fitted is Bidirectional.
The radiators weren't balanced by them when they completed the work, but was after
they revisited. Made no difference to this radiator in question.
My Gas Engineer mate also addressed the balancing issue again, but the problem with this radiator continued.
By the way, I have no idea if TRV is on flow pipe of the radiator. As far as I "know" the connections are fine. I've taken 3 pics but don't know how to upload as I'm asked for "URL" of the pic!0 -
Seem to indicate, and from some of the comments, that its either a valve location, valve flow, or a temperature sensing issue
Can you supply any pictures, including a close up of the valve hopefully showing the arrows that may be on the valve body, and you need to know which pipe it is on, flow or return, for sure?
Do this by feeling the pipes on start up from cold and note which pipe gets hot 1st, if its the one with the TRV on its the flow
If it should for some obscure reason be a sensing issue you could consider these>>>>
http://heating.danfoss.com/Product/013G5065_MNU17378929.htmlSignature removed0 -
take the head off, the valve has a grey knob just underneath the pin with two arrows on it, if the pipe with the valve gets hot first then the arrow should be up on the mark, if it's the other pipe that gets hot first then turn the knob so the arrow faces down on the mark, re-fit the headI'm only here while I wait for Corrie to start.
You get no BS from me & if I think you are wrong I WILL tell you.0 -
I am going to suggest letting the rad run until it cools down. Then set the timer to HW only and turn the cylinder thermostat up. See if the radiator heats up. If it does it is on the wrong circuit. Don't forget to turn the cylinder thermostat back down.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0
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southcoastrgi wrote: »take the head off, the valve has a grey knob just underneath the pin with two arrows on it, if the pipe with the valve gets hot first then the arrow should be up on the mark, if it's the other pipe that gets hot first then turn the knob so the arrow faces down on the mark, re-fit the head
Thank you everyone for your input!
I fiddled about with the grey knob following Southcoastrgi's advice (although my action was a lot more amateur), and this radiator "seems" to be working ok now. I'm still going to be monitoring it, but hopefully there will be no need to revisit this again.
Thank you to Southcoastrgi and everyone else once again
While I'm able to benefit from knowledgeable and helpful folks, I hope I can ask one quick question please!
The radiator in the hallway where the Room Thermostat is doesn't have a TRV on it (as recommended), and has a Lockshield on that side instead, so as soon as the Heating is turned On, this hallway radiator is constantly On.
*By the way, there is an Auto Bypass fitted in the Cylinder Airing Cupboard.
I wanted to know, will it be ok to replace the Lockshield Valve with a Half Turn Valve, so that this radiator can actually be turned off (my mum would prefer this, as all the technology - Room Stat, Digi Programmer - is a bit confusing for her, and having bit more "control" over this rad will make her feel more at ease, and I just want her to be happy) without this having a detrimental affect on anything, and getting a Half Turn Valve that looks like this (not exact make or anything) be ok?:
http://www.homeoutlet.co.uk/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/24095.html?source=gg-gba-pla_24095____29588397054&s_kwcid=PTC!pla!!!57026854986!g!!29588397054&gclid=CNGboNuFmLsCFS3JtAodcSEA-w
Thank you.0
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