Will RoUK really give up some of its financial freedom to the independant Scots?

RJP33

I've been reasonably neutral on this until yesterday when I had a read through the SNP document, which was astonishing.

Do the SNP really think they can have all benefits of the UK and no risk when they leave; Why would a UK government allow Scotland to piggy back off the pound for low interest rates with the BoE as lender of last resort? What happens when they rejoin the EU with none of the UKs opt-outs? What about being obliged to join Schengen, essentially ensuring border controls? Why would the BBC still be available in Scotland with no cost, as there is with every foreign currency? Why even bother to be independent when most of this they already have?

It actually feels like a moment where their bluff will be called as I cannot imagine the vast majority of intelligent people voting for this fantasy land vision, people are not this stupid.

In essence the document is a massive argument for Devo Max, not independence.

ruggedtoast

Not very scientific but Vote No has more than ten times as many likes as Vote Yes

https://www.facebook.com/VoteNo2014/posts/549738331751828

https://www.facebook.com/IndependentScotland?fref=ts

Graham_Devon

The thing I'm uncomfortable about with all of this is that if the Scots say no to independance, it's going to be England, Wales and NI that were at fault for stating that would be stupid etc to choose independance.

While I believe we should all be able to have our say, i think we should be careful not to state on TV all the time that the Scots would be stupid to vote for independance.

We won't be seen as "saving" the Scots. We'll be seen as interefering. While we certainly have that right to interfere, especially in the actual paperwork as it were, I really wish we'd stop making out the Scots would be stupid to vote for indepedance.

The only way we'll ever know whether it was right or not is if they do it. If they don't, the focus won't stop in 2014. The focus will be straight back to the rest of the UK for downtreading their right to independance etc.

There appears to be a growing issue between the Scots and the rest of the UK already. We don't need to make that worse. Instead of stating they won't be stupid enough to vote for indepdance (and this is stated on prime time TV by our politicians) we should be explaining the benefits of staying.

To be frank, I wish they would just go independant. We'd then see the results, stop all this fuss and stop creating this building hatred between the two nations.....and Alex Salmond isn't helping by suggesting ransoms if we don't allow them to do X Y and Z when they are (apparently) "Independant".

Secondly, he isn't helping by suggesting the UK's assets are also their assets and they will take their fair share...but then saying what's Scotlands it's Scotlands.It's almost as if he wants to create resent from the rest of the UK.

Scottish Independance may be a good idea. But they really need to focus on true independance instead of assuming they will be independant, keep the the good stuff and shelve the stuff they don't like. That means not relying on us as lender of last resort but paying nothing in. It means not using our army and paying nothing for it, but paying for their own. And apparently Scot's will be able to view the BBC, but not pay for it.

All a little too convinient and this instance on using British stuff but not paying for it, keeping all Scottish assets, but taking their "fair share" of the rest of the UK's assets, keeping the BOE etc is starting to create resent.

MFW_ASAP

I haven't seen anyone in the media saying that the Scots are 'stupid' for wanting independence. The 'No' vote is being run by Scots (Alistair Darling is Scottish) and the British Government is trying to take a back seat - with Cameron refusing to have a televised debate with Salmond because (as he rightly stated) Alastair Darling was the head of the 'no vote' campaign and so the debate should be with him.

The SNP were put out about that because they are desperate to see an English vs Scots argument, so Cameron was being canny staying out of it and leaving it to the Scottish 'no' campaigners.

What I'm uncomfortable with is that if the scots do vote for independence, the SNP will blame any disaster on the RoUK because we 'sabotaged Scottish independance'. This is why all parties should make absolutely clear whether the Scots can be in the Pound, whether the scots can join the EU without being in the Euro, etc etc BEFORE they vote.

They are voting on ignorance and supposition. When the SNP's 'best case scenarios' don't work out, the SNP will push the blame on everyone but themselves. The 'wishy washy' proposals will benefit the SNP's post independence blame game and while the UK government can't speak for the EU (and Scottish EU membership), we can make it clear what our stance is on them using the pound. Even if the UK government just said "We'll have to have a referendum on Scotland joining a Sterling Zone", would do the trick because surely the Scots know that the RoUK would vote 'No' even if it's just to get back at the Scots for voting 'Yes'.

Graham_Devon

MFW_ASAP wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone in the media saying that the Scots are 'stupid' for wanting independence.

Watch Question time from last week then (might have been the week before).

Sebastian Coe is just one of the people I have seen saying it, and he says it on question time. David Cameron has said the same thing, just wrapped it up in niceities.

kabayiri

MFW_ASAP wrote: »

...
What does everyone else think?

I think a RoUK government would have to act in the interests of it's citizens.

What else can it do ?

There can be arrangements for cost sharing on NHS for example, but we wouldn't expect it to be given away free.

Everything has a price. It is conceivable that RoUK could make a profit out of this long term.

MFW_ASAP

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Watch Question time from last week then (might have been the week before).

Sebastian Coe is just one of the people I have seen saying it, and he says it on question time. David Cameron has said the same thing, just wrapped it up in niceities.

Did Sebastian Coe actually use the words "stupid"?

EDIT: I've been on the Question Time BBC site which lists the panellists for that week and can't find Seb Coe on for the following episodes:

21st Nov, 14th Nov, 7th Nov, 31st Oct, 24th Oct, 17th Oct, 10th Oct, 3rd Oct, 26th Sept.

When did he appear?

ruggedtoast

Graham_Devon wrote: »

The thing I'm uncomfortable about with all of this is that if the Scots say no to independance, it's going to be England, Wales and NI that were at fault for stating that would be stupid etc to choose independance.

England will never win when it comes to Scotland I am afraid. Whatever we do we are evil oppressors.

From saying early on that Scotland should support England in football as a normal nation would in Scandinavia, the Yes campaign has fallen back on precisely the anti English sentiment it said it would avoid.

Years ago there used to be a sports programme on Saturday mornings that once had Ally Mcoist answering phone in questions. Out of the blue a Scottish woman was put through who starting castigating him for what she seemed to consider was something akin to treason.

The presenter pointed out that they were vastly over represented in parliament and got more subsidies than the rest of the UK. Then Mcoist chimed in that there was just an element of poisonous anti-englishness that pervades some parts of Scottish society, and there always has been.

I doubt offloading them politically will change things.

MFW_ASAP

From what I've seen from Salmon and other SNP representatives Scottish News reports, if anything is going well it's because of the judicious government from the SNP, if things are going badly then it's the fault of 'Westminster'. I can imagine this will persist into independence. If it doesn't work out, it's the fault of the English.

System

kabayiri wrote: »

I think a RoUK government would have to act in the interests of it's citizens.
.

I haven't seen any suggestions that people be deprived of their nationality, so presumably any Scots who declined to take up new Scottish nationality would continue to be UK nationals.