Will RoUK really give up some of its financial freedom to the independant Scots?

MFW_ASAP

angrypirate wrote: »

I dont know if last nigths audience were specially selected as they wanted independence or just the general view of the Scottish, but if it is a true representation of most of Scotland, then Id happily see them go.

There is a real risk with the Independence campaign that resentment builds up between the Scots and English. Graham touched on it earlier in the thread, but only approached it from one angle (RoUK antagonising the Scots). I think it works both ways. As an average Englishman who had just been to Scotland for holidays, etc. (Edinburgh, Gretna) I knew there was the banter about 'Anyone But England (football team)' and other digs, but I took them as such and though it was the same sort of ribbing that we give/receive with the Welsh and Irish. However now I'm working up there, I was shocked to realise just how deep seated the hatred of the English is with some Scots. I had a taxi driver tell me that she 'Didn't mind the English individually, but couldn't stand them as a group'. I wonder what would happen if she said that about Asians, Moslems, Poles or other grouping?

This is going to get nasty and we could end up with the RoUK disliking the Scots just as much as they already dislike us. It's divisive and really has no place in the 21st century when most peoples are coming together, not moving apart. It's the same sort of hatred that was prevalent in the 1930s, and that government had 'National' in their party title too.

ruggedtoast

MFW_ASAP wrote: »

There is a real risk with the Independence campaign that resentment builds up between the Scots and English. Graham touched on it earlier in the thread, but only approached it from one angle (RoUK antagonising the Scots). I think it works both ways. As an average Englishman who had just been to Scotland for holidays, etc. (Edinburgh, Gretna) I knew there was the banter about 'Anyone But England (football team)' and other digs, but I took them as such and though it was the same sort of ribbing that we give/receive with the Welsh and Irish. However now I'm working up there, I was shocked to realise just how deep seated the hatred of the English is with some Scots. I had a taxi driver tell me that she 'Didn't mind the English individually, but couldn't stand them as a group'. I wonder what would happen if she said that about Asians, Moslems, Poles or other grouping?

This is going to get nasty and we could end up with the RoUK disliking the Scots just as much as they already dislike us. It's divisive and really has no place in the 21st century when most peoples are coming together, not moving apart. It's the same sort of hatred that was prevalent in the 1930s, and that government had 'National' in their party title too.

My inlaws have a motor home and despite speaking no language other than English (and some horribly mangled French that even makes me wince) drive several thousand miles a year happily living for weeks on end on caravinning sites in various parts of France, Italy and Germany.

They went to Scotland once and received such bitter anti English sentiment from the owners of the site they were staying on and the people in the village there, that they have never been back to Scotland again, and never intend to.

MFW_ASAP

angrypirate wrote: »

I thought last night Sturgeon and that Ginger Scottish singer were rude

That ginger singer revealed the true nature of her anti-English colours when she slipped up and ranted about the English ruling them, and had to be corrected by the Scottish "No" campaign guy who said the UK government was British, not English.

She was an angry, nasty piece of work. Just the sort of person you see in other nationalist parties like the BNP and NF.

You have to wonder if the Scots would even be looking at an Independence referendum if the oil resided off the coast of Cornwall instead of Scotland. If that's the case, then it's clearly not about the ideals of democracy or self determination and instead it's all about greed and refusal to share resources for the common good.

What next, will Aberdeen decide to split away from the rest of Scotland because they pay out more in taxes than they receive in benefits?

It's the politics of Greed. For me, the only 'Yes' campaigner with any credit was from the Greens who said that vote shouldn't be based on EU membership, childcare, not wanting Conservative governments, etc. but based on whether you want independence for its own sake, even if it makes you worse off financially.

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth

SWhen Scotland becomes indepent, through English nationalism, it can take Liverpool with it

System

angrypirate wrote: »

I thought last night Sturgeon and that Ginger Scottish singer were rude, not listening to anyone and coming out with some utter tosh. .

They are getting desperate. They never really wanted to come anywhere near having a referendum, let alone independence, they just wanted an ongoing issue to keep complaining about to extract more concessions.

But now their bluff has been called, the horrible truth is beginning to sink in.
They don't want independence, they have been manoeuvred into pretending that they do, and they aren't even going to get it.
Pure hubris.

kabayiri

angrypirate wrote: »

I thought last night Sturgeon and that Ginger Scottish singer were rude, not listening to anyone and coming out with some utter tosh. I dont tend to watch question time anymore as my wife stops me from watching it coz i get angry with the tv. Last night she was out until late and I was already into it. Dont think she was impressed when she got in.

I dont know if last nigths audience were specially selected as they wanted independence or just the general view of the Scottish, but if it is a true representation of most of Scotland, then Id happily see them go.

If that program were any kind of reference point for the quality of debate, then I truly fear for the Scottish voter.

Nicola Sturgeon's position on retaining the pound seemed to be that we (Scotland) can barter a good deal out of RoUK because we have oil revenues and we are a major market for RoUK.

Surely independence should be based on longer term projections? You can't rely on the goodwill of a future RoUK government to set things like interest rates in Scotland's favour. Oil revenue will diminish, and then what?, the bartering rules change? It was all a bit insubstantial.

She didn't really want to entertain the use of the Euro as a new member. Why not?

They didn't set out a plan to deal with the concerns of Eurozone states like Spain either.

This is going to be one of the biggest decisions a Scottish voter makes. They deserve as much factual background info as possible.

zagubov

kabayiri wrote: »

If that program were any kind of reference point for the quality of debate, then I truly fear for the Scottish voter.

Nicola Sturgeon's position on retaining the pound seemed to be that we (Scotland) can barter a good deal out of RoUK because we have oil revenues and we are a major market for RoUK.

Surely independence should be based on longer term projections? You can't rely on the goodwill of a future RoUK government to set things like interest rates in Scotland's favour. Oil revenue will diminish, and then what?, the bartering rules change? It was all a bit insubstantial.

She didn't really want to entertain the use of the Euro as a new member. Why not?

They didn't set out a plan to deal with the concerns of Eurozone states like Spain either.

This is going to be one of the biggest decisions a Scottish voter makes. They deserve as much factual background info as possible.

Sadly the unionist side don't want to supply information. They could get the official EU position and solve it by asking if they wanted but despite the Yes campaign asking them to do that, they refuse point blank.

They're not relying on goodwill but mutual self-interest. Neither country is a baby or in a pram.

The EU's a red herring whose appeal to the Yes campaign is utterly baffling to me when EFTA's available and on the face of it better cheaper, more welcoming and unproblematic.

As regards Eddi Reader I was simply gobsmacked that the Question Timeorganisers had ever bothered to even the numbers, It's usually an ambushg of LibDems, Labour and Tories finding common sport in drowning out a lone SNP spokesperson.

I was horrified by some of the claims and fears the audience were raising. One man who lived in the borders assumed that immigrants seeking some Scottish welfare utopia would swamp his area first as it would be closest to England. Does anyone think that's how people behave, ie move into a country's rural areas before moving into the mysterious unfamiliar big cities ?

Graham_Devon

Would be interesting to see a Question Time special on Scottish Independance with an audience built up of English, Welsh and NI residents. As far as I'm aware they have always headed upto Scotland.

I know it's not the choice of the rest of us whether they go independant or not.

However, their choice appears to be increasingly leaning on the understanding that, if they do go independant, they will still be able to tap into UK infrastructure.

I'd like to know how the rest of the UK feels on assets, the BOE etc.

I can't imagine that Nicola Sturgeon would get quite the same clappy audience suggesting that Scottish assets are to remain Scottish (oil etc) but Scots will take their fair share of UK assets as "it's all of ours".

It also appears that the SNP would expect the UK to mint (and pay for) Scottish pound notes.

The sole reason given is: "why would the UK not do this....if they don't they will have to pay transaction fees to deal with Scotland".

A lot of the whitepaper on Scotland appears to rely on the fact that SNP appear to think Scotland are so important to the rest of the UK AND the EU area that they can wave their wand and we will succumb to their wishes.

And for that reason, I think it's about time now that the rest of the UK go to have their say on national platforms. Otherwise, repression of such a say on national platforms will just lead to resent against the Scots, and dare I say it, racism.

If they are seemingly wishing to lean on us so strongly and "hope" that we will simply go along with their wants, while they retain Scottish assets but pluck what they want from UK assets....while keeping an "open and respected dialogue" witht he rest of the UK..they may find themselves somewhat dissapointed.

Potential SNP voters need to bear this in mind before simply making up their minds based on what the SNP states.

I'd be quite happy for Scotland to go independent and they PAY us for any services and assets they wish to keep and tap into. But that appears not to be the case.

It's a real shame, but I feel this will just end up with a fallout between the Scots and the rest of the UK....and that's regardless of whether they go independent or not. Think it's gone to far already. Not sure we can do much about it either, as if we, as the UK intervene and say anything, it will just lead to further ammunition as to why they should go independent. Viscous circle.

The most shocking thing of all is that that singer, who was pro independance appeared to assume if it all went a bit wrong, they could simply rejoin the UK again. She literally stated "why couldn't we, it's up to US" and no one appeared to suggest to her it was also up to the rest of the UK.

Graham_Devon

zagubov wrote: »

Sadly the unionist side don't want to supply information. They could get the official EU position and solve it by asking if they wanted but despite the Yes campaign asking them to do that, they refuse point blank.

Why is it up to other parties to do this?

SNP are making the independance case. Surely it should be up to the SNP to provide the facts, details and work out the deals and provide the facts?

Otherwise, it's pure political posturing.

Your post leaves one serious question.....why haven't the SNP already GOT the opinion of other EU states!? It's a major part of independence.

Generali

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Your post leaves one serious question.....why haven't the SNP already GOT the opinion of other EU states!? It's a major part of independence.

My guess is that they have taken legal advice and don't like what they heard.

My understanding is that if Scotland leaves the UK:

1. They will not be members of the EU as a secessionist region although 'England' will be as the continuing country
2. Any application to join the EU will have to be done under conditions including an agreement to hold your currency against the Euro within fixed bands for a period before joining the Euro (that means the Pound couldn't be used by Scotland unless 'England' was prepared to rejoin the ERM)
3. A single EU member could veto Scotland joining the EU.

Anything beyond those 3 points is supposition.

GD - How do you think Spain or France who have regions that want to leave the country will react to Scottish independence?