UKPC Parking Charge for not parking within the marked bay

Jonah76

Scrootum wrote: »

As a bit of a newbie here, why is that a bad thing?
I would have thought it was better than upping the parking fees for everyone.
I am probably missing something though.

Because they are effectively coercing a landowner into taking their "services" to they can perform daylight robbery. They are pretending to have the same powers as regular traffic enforcement and are charging excessive punitive amounts for failure to comply with terms and conditions to a contract that the unsuspecting driver has supposedly entered in to. It is about fairness and justice.

Just my two penneth...:whistle:

Coupon-mad

Scrootum wrote: »

As a bit of a newbie here, why is that a bad thing?
I would have thought it was better than upping the parking fees for everyone.
I am probably missing something though.

Mainly because they shoot themselves in the foot by saying they 'make their revenue from PCNs issued' which they are not allowed to under the BPA code of practice! Each PCN issued alleging a 'breach of terms' has to represent and individual 'genuine pre-estimate of loss' caused specifically by the parking incident.

You can see why calling it 'revenue' is pretty dumb and makes it easy to beat at POPLA. Also they can't show it as 'loss' at all of course, because it isn't!

4consumerrights

In response to Scrostum's query in post 11 above - BOTH Jonah76 and Coupon-Mads answers should be combined.

*************************

Well I sent it via email on Friday and have the confirmation of receipt stating they will come back to me within 35 days. Naturally, I am expecting my challenge to be denied at this stage but am well prepared for the appeal proper once that comes through. If I were them I would just quit now as they will get there pound of flesh from others who will just cough up.

From experience (my own included) this is likely to be along the lines of the reponse to your appeal:

We have looked at your appeal however we remain satisifed that the parking charge was correctly issued in this case and you have lost the right for the early discount and the the charge has reverted to the original amount. Should you wish to appeal this charge we enclose the POPLA forms for your completion.

However, !!! a gesture of goodwill we are prepared to offer a full and final settlement offer of £15 provided this payment is received within 7 days. Please note should you accept this offer, you will be unable to appeal to POPLA.

You now have the following choices:

1. Pay the full and final settlement offer of £15 - and not appeal to POPLA - please note that 10% of this charge will be donated to charity.
2. Appeal to POPLA using the forms enclosed.

If you do neither of the above two options you have 14 days to pay the full charge of £XX outstanding before further debt recovery action commences.

Please note that should you lose at POPLA then the full fee of £XX will be immediately due for payment."

Do note carefully the full payment amounts requested as on my letter they jumped from £90 (fully payment as per signage) to £100 if the appeal failed at POPLA!!


Meanwhile start researching how to contstruct a POPLA appeal - here's a good thread to get you started
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816165
Also read the sticky successful POPLA appeals thread (working backwards)

Post up your POPLA appeal before submitting.

Jonah76

[/QUOTE] Meanwhile start researching how to contstruct a POPLA appeal

Also read the sticky successful POPLA appeals thread (working backwards)

Post up your POPLA appeal before submitting.[/QUOTE]

Cheers for that I will read with interest. Is it weird to be looking forward to a fight?:beer:

brissolmr

I returned to find a little yellow sticker on my car after parking in a bay that I've used many time before. (Aspects, Bristol) "out of marked bay" apparently. Sent off a email as directed by the PCN only to be told I should write to them. Its taken a snotty letter to them after they ignored my appeal and started proceedings against me, plus a letter to the DVLA and a complaint letter to BPA for them to finally acknowledge the initial appeal and cancel the ticket:beer:
Few thing to note,

[*]make sure the wording on the PCN and following letters match (the PCN stated I had 7 days to appeal the follow up letter said 28days) If they want you to be in a contract it should match, highlight the differences!
[*]make sure they adhere to the rules set out under the BPA Code of Practice, thing like supplying a photo, signs well placed, time scales, allowing a grace period etc, putting the PCN on hold if you appeal (they didn't with me, instead they went to the DVLA and asked for my address which I pointed out I was taking as an act of "invasion of privacy" as they ignored their own rules)
[*] if you think they have not followed the rules set out by the BPA COMPLAIN! they have a rule of 12 strikes and UKCPS lose the right to go to the DVLA for information etc

Oh as a finally note, despite UKCPS writing me a snotty "on this occasion we have cancelled, its a one off" letter the following day i received a final demand letter.... they really are a joke! Happy to supply my snotty email appeal and follow up letter if anyone wants a laugh

Jonah76

I've received a response to my letter from UKPC. They state themselves as the creditor and confirm that they will not provide the details of the landlord or the contract they have with them.

As a newbie I cannot attach a copy of my letter & UKPC's reply. What is the best way of allowing you guys to read the letters for your advice on formulating a reply and going forward to POPLA? :beer:

Umkomaas

The UKPC response is nothing other than to be expected, so there's no real need to post it up here.

Did they issue you with a POPLA code?

If not, you must go back to them and say that if they are not going to accept your appeal and cancel your charge, then they must provide you with your POPLA code. If it is not provided in response to your letter, tell them that you will reporting their non compliance with the Code of Practice to the BPA and DVLA and ask them to undertake an investigation via their compliance and auditing teams.

Coupon-mad

Jonah76 wrote: »

I've received a response to my letter from UKPC. They state themselves as the creditor and confirm that they will not provide the details of the landlord or the contract they have with them.

As a newbie I cannot attach a copy of my letter & UKPC's reply. What is the best way of allowing you guys to read the letters for your advice on formulating a reply and going forward to POPLA?

Did you actually appeal? Did they actually say 'we are rejecting your appeal'?

If you have a POPLA code, then look at the advice already given to you above. 4consumerrights already gave you the info you need to win. Show us your draft.

Jonah76

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Did you actually appeal? Did they actually say 'we are rejecting your appeal'?

If you have a POPLA code, then look at the advice already given to you above. 4consumerrights already gave you the info you need to win. Show us your draft.

No I specifically stated in my letter that it was a challenge & not an appeal. They however refer to appeal throughout the letter.

They have not provided a POPLA code as requested in my letter if they were to reject my challenge.

My letter:

By email

UK Parking Control Ltd


Dear Sirs,

Parking Charge Notice: 029********
Incident date: November 2013

Without prejudice, except as to costs

I am writing to you with reference to the above. In order to take an informed decision on how to deal with the above-mentioned document I would like to request further information on this alleged incident and the alleged parking charges of £100.00.
Please note I wish to challenge your Parking Charge Notice “PCN” as set out in the current BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice B.22 to the following:

1. Cause of Action.
Please make this clear. If it is your claim that I entered into a contract, please send me a complete version of the terms and conditions of that contract to which you say I agreed to. Further to the above please explain fully on which of the following grounds your claim is based:

a. Damages for trespass
b. Damages for breach of contract
c. A contractual sum

2. Your loss.
If it is your case that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages; please give me the full breakdown of the actual losses which evidences that this parking charge is a true reflection of the damages caused solely by the allege parking contravention. If on the other hand you are claiming there was a breach of contract or a contractually agreed sum, I would like to receive a copy of the contract, which the driver allegedly entered into.

3. Status.
Your PCN mentions UK Parking Control Ltd but fails to identify the actual creditor making this parking charge demand, as required under Schedule 4 paragraphs 8(2)(h) and 9(2)(h) of the PoFA 2012. Therefore I would like you to send me this information, since I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

4. Rights of Possession/Ownership.
I would be very grateful if you could send me evidence that, besides your management duties within the car park, you also enjoy the rights of possession or occupation needed to be able to enter into an individual contract with drivers and to issue PCN’s. I therefore require you to send me a copy of the contract that gives you authority to demand these payments together with the instructions that you have received from the landowner/landholder regarding the time limits and sanctions they wish to impose on their customers.

5. Signage.
Your PCN mentions that the vehicle was “not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space”. Please provide all witness statements and any photographic evidence of this observation. The photographs viewed on your website provide a blurry unreadable shot of an unlit sign taken in the dark using a camera with flash. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park. Please provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to the driver at the car park’s entry point. Also, please send me a copy of your procedures for handling and processing that evidence and the relevant audit trail. Furthermore, under section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 please send me a copy of all such photographs along with a copy of all other data you hold relating to me. This would be required disclosure in any event within the small claims process. Consequently, I do not expect to pay for the release of this information to me.

6. Ownership.
Please tell me who owns the land on which you claim this vehicle was parked. I wish to retrospectively include them in this and any further correspondence on this matter.

7. Punitive/Unfair/Unreasonable.
The parking charge of £100 is punitive and is therefore void. £100 is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. This would also apply to any costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed a court order.
a. The £100 parking charge you are imposing is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of this Regulations which gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e):

‘Terms which have the object or effect or requiring any consumer who fails to fulfill his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.’
Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) says:
‘A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.’

b. The £100 parking charge you are unilaterally imposing is an unreasonable indemnity clause under section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, which says:
‘A person cannot be reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) is respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.’
Please note this is not an appeal however it is a challenge to your issue of the PCN. As set out in the AOS Codes of Practice I should be grateful for answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of your obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct, in particular reference to 1.2.
To avoid any doubt due to miscommunication, please do not do any of the following:
a. Send any correspondence or documents to me or try to communicate with me in any way except to address in writing and send by post the specific points I have raised in this email
b. Send me any document purporting to be from the county court unless it is a valid claim form duly issued
c. Send and ‘reminders’ repeating your charge
d. Write to me threatening to send bailiffs to my address without first issuing a court claim and obtaining the court’s judgment
e. Send me any standard form letters from your company or debt collectors, no debt has been acknowledged
Summary.
I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and as there are no ‘exceptional circumstances’ your comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I shall deal with your PCN.
If you reject this challenge or fail to address all the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.
If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.
Please note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this email/letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.
If you decide to issue proceedings, please note that:
a. I reserve the right to add further arguments to the defence, and
b. I or my representative will be happy to attend any court mediation that might be offered
I look forward to your reply.
This letter is written wholly Without Prejudice to my rights and pleas and may not be produced or founded upon in any proceedings by any party or other person except on my prior, express, written consent.
Yours faithfully,

Jonah76

UKPC response:

1. The Parking Charges issued by UKPC are levied on the basis of a contract with the driver, as detailed on the signage in the car parks. The signage sets out the terms and conditions of parking under which a driver is authorised to park, be that by pre-payment of a parking tariff, or by parking only for a maximum period of time, or by adhering to other terms and conditions (such as being parked in a marked bay), and that a Parking Charge will be payable if the conditions of parking are not met by the driver. THEY THEN PROVIDE A PHOTOCOPY OF A SIGN!!! THEY FAILED TO PROVIDE A MAP OF THE SITE SIGNAGE IN RELATION TO WHERE MY CAR WAS PARKED. They also quote Arthur v Anker 1996, Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest 2000 referencing s 7.1 Dept. Transport's guidance on s 56 & schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom's Act 2012. I guess all about appropriate signage.

2. They have taken advice that not only can their parking charges be justified on the basis that they amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss but are likely to amount to "liquidated damages" because a Court's position (surely they mean the law?) is that parties to a contract agree to fix the amount of damages in the event of a breach. They cite Robophone Facilities v Blank stating that the onus is on me to provide the charge is a penalty.

"We confirm that it is not necessary to provide you with a breakdown of our Parking Charges at this time. That information is confidential, but it is available & will provided to the court in the course of court proceedings if necessary, and if payment has not been made before the.

3. They confirm they are the creditor & do not act as an Agent.

4. They will not disclose the land owner due to a confidentiality clause. They assure me that the relevant contracts are in place & would provide them to the court if required in court proceedings.

5. They confirm photo's online & as they are taken in a public place do not constitute a data protection breach.

6. Confirm they won't provide this information due to confidentiality.

7. Not punitive or unfair & in-line with BPA guidelines

Unfair Terms quote - reject disproportionately high sum assert a genuine pre-estiate of loss.

Contractual term/fairness test (etc) - "We note that it is usual practice throughout the industry to operate on standard form agreements with drivers & it is well known to drivers that this is the case."