how to find historic dss rules and get copies of dss info?

kuepper

I'm trying to find out what rules applied to a person receiving sickness benefit in April 1995, as Age UK believe I've wrongly been paying tax on it. I contacted the inland revenue but they just said they only act on info from dwp. Can anyone suggest a source of the rules in 1995? I asked the DWP to explain in writing why I should have paid tax but they haven't quoted chapter and verse about the relevant rules at the time in relation to my case and just bamboozled me with loads of acronyms - IBLT,MPA, AP, DPTC, WTC, CTC, and LT - that mean nothing to me. I went to my local Citizens Advice but without inquiring further they just said I should accept the DWP position as 'they know the rules'.

I haven't kept any paperwork from 1995 as I never thought it would ever be relevant, is there a way of obtaining copies of historic documents from dwp?

Icequeen99

Are you referring to the point at which invalidity benefit changed to incapacity benefit?

Invalidity benefit was tax free, and those people who were moved form it to incapacity benefit (which was a taxable benefit for long term recipients) were given protection of their tax free status.

If you post more details of the exact question, will see if I can link to the info you need.

IQ

NYM

From HMRC's manuals:

Incapacity Benefit was introduced on 13 April 1995 to replace Invalidity Benefit and Sickness Benefit. It is administered and paid by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP)

"IB is taxable except:

- for the short term benefit paid at a lower rate for the first 28 weeks of incapacity
- where the recipient is over pensionable age and receives a higher rate of IB than the basic short term rate for the first 28 weeks of incapacity
- if DWP makes ex-gratia top-up payments to people over pensionable age
- where IB is payable to a person who was entitled to invalidity benefit prior to 13 April 1995 (when incapacity benefit replaced invalidity benefit) provided the benefit is in respect of the same period of incapacity. (However, if the person was entitled to Sickness Benefit prior to 13 April 1995 then the IB became taxable when that person started to receive the short-term higher rate of IB.) The DWP may ignore short periods of work when determining a period of incapacity, but if a period of work is not ignored, so a recipient who had a period of incapacity before 13 April 1995 starts a new period of incapacity after that date, the IB will be taxable after 6 months under the normal rules."

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye77001.htm

kuepper

Thanks for your interest NYM and Icequeen99. Although NYM seems to have found the relevant rules i'm still bedazzled by them. If I provide as much as I know maybe one of you can clarify.

In the 1990s I had been intermittently sick with the same illness for several years, sometimes off for weeks sometimes months. I went off sick on 18 October 1994 and my employer said they were going to retire me on health grounds. They told me to continue submitting sick notes while they went through the bureaucratic process and my last day of employment was 2nd April 1995. From 3rd April 1995 I got my works pension and - as far as I know from memory- 'sickness benefit' ( though that was just the common name for it, it may well have been called something else). I don't remember how the system worked in those days but according to the DWP I was getting 'statutory sick pay' up to 1st April and didn't claim Incapacity Benefit until 13 April 1995. That doesn't seem right to me, I know my works pension was payable from 3rd April and when one sick note ran out I went to get another so the stream of sick notes was uninterrupted from 18 October 1994 until the fitness for work test was introduced a couple of years later. How that translated into the names of the payments I received from DSS I don't know but my illness was uninterrupted. I can understand why DWP say I didn't claim Incapacity Benefit until 13 April as technically no-one did because it didn't exist until then, but I'm confident I was in receipt of whatever its predecssor was. DWP seem to be saying my incapacity benefit was taxable as I hadn't been continuously sick for 28 weeks prior to 13 April 1995, but my last period of illness while employed was just the latest period of sickness, the illness had started years before and there should be documentation saying that somewhere, if it's a relevant issue.

xylophone

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/63026169#Comment_63026169

Are you sure you aren't flogging a dead horse?

jacques_chirac

You need to ascertain who you were submitting your sick notes to for that period. If it went to your employer it would be SSP. The chances of your employer still having that information are pretty low.

Icequeen99

kuepper wrote: »

Thanks for your interest NYM and Icequeen99. Although NYM seems to have found the relevant rules i'm still bedazzled by them. If I provide as much as I know maybe one of you can clarify.

In the 1990s I had been intermittently sick with the same illness for several years, sometimes off for weeks sometimes months. I went off sick on 18 October 1994 and my employer said they were going to retire me on health grounds. They told me to continue submitting sick notes while they went through the bureaucratic process and my last day of employment was 2nd April 1995. From 3rd April 1995 I got my works pension and - as far as I know from memory- 'sickness benefit' ( though that was just the common name for it, it may well have been called something else). I don't remember how the system worked in those days but according to the DWP I was getting 'statutory sick pay' up to 1st April and didn't claim Incapacity Benefit until 13 April 1995. That doesn't seem right to me, I know my works pension was payable from 3rd April and when one sick note ran out I went to get another so the stream of sick notes was uninterrupted from 18 October 1994 until the fitness for work test was introduced a couple of years later. How that translated into the names of the payments I received from DSS I don't know but my illness was uninterrupted. I can understand why DWP say I didn't claim Incapacity Benefit until 13 April as technically no-one did because it didn't exist until then, but I'm confident I was in receipt of whatever its predecssor was. DWP seem to be saying my incapacity benefit was taxable as I hadn't been continuously sick for 28 weeks prior to 13 April 1995, but my last period of illness while employed was just the latest period of sickness, the illness had started years before and there should be documentation saying that somewhere, if it's a relevant issue.

I think you answered your own question on the previous thread on this.

The rules stated that if you were on invalidity benefit prior to 13 April 1995 and the moved onto Incapacity Benefit for the same period of incapacity then the IB was to be non-taxable.

However, my understanding is that it only applied to those who had been on invalidity benefit for at least 28 weeks. If you had been on it less (like you had) then you were transitioned to short term IB and then to long term taxable IB. In other words, you didn't transition to long term IB straight away, because you had not done a full 28 weeks. It was those transitioning to long term who got the protection.

So if you only had 21 weeks of invalidity benefit you wouldn't qualify for long term IB tax free.

IQ

kuepper

xylophone wrote: »

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/63026169#Comment_63026169

Are you sure you aren't flogging a dead horse?

I have no idea, the CAB were no use so I thought I'd come back here. DWP have been a bit cavalier with the 'facts' (eg Incapacity Benefit didn't exist until 13/4/95 so how can anyone have been on it for 28 weeks before that date, they never mentioned short periods of work could be discounted either) so you never know, anything's worth challenging if there's £000s involved

kuepper

Icequeen99 wrote: »

I think you answered your own question on the previous thread on this.

The rules stated that if you were on invalidity benefit prior to 13 April 1995 and the moved onto Incapacity Benefit for the same period of incapacity then the IB was to be non-taxable.

However, my understanding is that it only applied to those who had been on invalidity benefit for at least 28 weeks. If you had been on it less (like you had) then you were transitioned to short term IB and then to long term taxable IB. In other words, you didn't transition to long term IB straight away, because you had not done a full 28 weeks. It was those transitioning to long term who got the protection.

So if you only had 21 weeks of invalidity benefit you wouldn't qualify for long term IB tax free.

IQ

As I have no record myself, I don't know whether the period of work before 18/10/94 was 'short' - whatever short is - in which case it could be discounted for the purposes of counting 28 weeks?

In any case I'm not sure if the period of 28 weeks is applicable anyway as in the link given by NYM it states Claimants who until 13 April 1995 were entitled to Invalidity Benefit are not chargeable to tax on Incapacity Benefit due after that date, so long as their claim is unbroken. It appears that following my Statutory Sick Pay I must have received what was then called Invalidity Benefit(though I'm not sure what the distinction is between that and 'Sickness Benefit') 3rd April to 12 April 1995 therefore don't I come within that exemption?

NYM - I can't see the text you quoted in the link you gave, where is that from?

Icequeen99

kuepper wrote: »

As I have no record myself, I don't know whether the period of work before 18/10/94 was 'short' - whatever short is - in which case it could be discounted for the purposes of counting 28 weeks?

In any case I'm not sure if the period of 28 weeks is applicable anyway as in the link given by NYM it states Claimants who until 13 April 1995 were entitled to Invalidity Benefit are not chargeable to tax on Incapacity Benefit due after that date, so long as their claim is unbroken. It appears that following my Statutory Sick Pay I must have received what was then called Invalidity Benefit(though I'm not sure what the distinction is between that and 'Sickness Benefit') 3rd April to 12 April 1995 therefore don't I come within that exemption?

NYM - I can't see the text you quoted in the link you gave, where is that from?

Yes, but there is an exception in what he quotes 'However, if the person was entitled to Sickness Benefit prior to 13 April 1995 then the IB became taxable when that person started to receive the short-term higher rate of IB.'

I think you are on the wrong track re the 28 weeks. If you went from invalidity benefit to short term IB (which you must have done otherwise you would have gone to long term and would be covered by the tax exemption) then at the time DWP would have taken account of the earlier periods when calculating the 28 weeks. That wouldn't be a decision for HMRC now.

The tax position depends on the benefit position - HMRC have to base it on the benefit as was. If it is the case that at the time DWP decided you had not done 28 weeks and therefore started IB on a short term rate then the exemption doesn't apply.

IQ

NYM

kuepper wrote: »

As I have no record myself, I don't know whether the period of work before 18/10/94 was 'short' - whatever short is - in which case it could be discounted for the purposes of counting 28 weeks?

In any case I'm not sure if the period of 28 weeks is applicable anyway as in the link given by NYM it states Claimants who until 13 April 1995 were entitled to Invalidity Benefit are not chargeable to tax on Incapacity Benefit due after that date, so long as their claim is unbroken. It appears that following my Statutory Sick Pay I must have received what was then called Invalidity Benefit(though I'm not sure what the distinction is between that and 'Sickness Benefit') 3rd April to 12 April 1995 therefore don't I come within that exemption?

NYM - I can't see the text you quoted in the link you gave, where is that from?

Sorry.... I might have given an incorrect link.

Try this one.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/eim76180.htm