Dentits and NHS

mda99das

Quentin you are very disillusioned and misinformed.

You have some misinformed conception that dentists are extremely well off, I can assure you that this is not the case. You are forgetting

1) The dedication, effort and expense of training, insurance, CPD etc, this is the sacrifices that we make as individuals just to stay on the register.
2) The NHS does not take any risk in running dental practices. What you see is private investment, the NHS provides funding for a badly ill devised contract that puts all the risk on the dentist. Bankrupting a practice will have a detrimental effect on provision of services.

NHS managers are accountable to no one. From your posts, it would seem that you have a managerial role within an organisation.
They do not have a register, they have no clinical qualifications or background and their remuneration for all of this is greatly misplaced. They earn far more and work less hours than a consultant could ever dream of.
However is there a public outcry, I think not. The public are once again misled.

Quentin

From your post you'd wonder why anyone aspires to running a dental practice.

Nevertheless, if they do they are bound to operate a complaints procedure.

Your rant about the NHS/dentist remuneration/NHS managers having no clinical qualifications (you sure about that??) etc should be in the rant forum.

How does it help the OP?

(Dentists can't really use the excuse they don't get paid anything for having to deal with complaints, surely their remuneration for their clinical work includes an element for the inevitable non clinical work the job involves)

welshdent

maybe people aspire to being a dentist because they actually value the role dentists play in society? Just a thought. I actually love what I do and your clearly biased comments re earnings do the profession a disservice. You have come on to this thread purely to have a pop at a group of people you are hostile to because you think we are all rolling in money. Of course we expect to have complaints made but usually thats because we have done something wrong quentin. Complaining to the dentist will NOT make things happen faster for the OP. It will achieve nothing other than letting off steam because as a private contractor providing NHS treatments the dentist doesnt have a foot in the door to make a lost referral letter appear nor can they have them placed higher up as a way of handling the problem. I have been clear about this all along and NOT absolved the dentist of blame as you are fashioning it. I am simply being realistic about what a complaint to the dentist could possibly achieve in THIS instance that the OP has outlined. Dredging up perverts, struck off dentists and dentists not standing in poverty lines adds nothing except show up your prejudices.

welshdent

Quentin wrote: »

From your post you'd wonder why anyone aspires to running a dental practice.


(Dentists can't really use the excuse they don't get paid anything for having to deal with complaints, surely their remuneration for their clinical work includes an element for the inevitable non clinical work the job involves)

actually no it doesnt. Our contracts involve having to complete units of dental activity which correspond to individual courses of treatment (not items). Given the value of a unit varies from practice to practice and is based on the practices historical activity then NO it doesnt include what you appear to think it does/

Quentin

Yes, you get paid on the piece work system. You are normally self employed.

But are you telling us that the NHS rates aren't calculated so that your piece work rates don't include extra money for other non clinical work?

If not, how do NHS only practices survive?

You seem to be agreeing with your colleague dentist that as the dentist doesn't get paid for dealing with a complaint so we shouldn't take up their fee earning time by complaining to them????

(But how does all this assist the OP?)

brook2jack

If OP is in Manchester I thought it might be illuminating to read the experiences of a colleague in trying to get an urgent oral surgery referral and the problems involved


" In the Manchester area where this referral was made, you fill in a form and fax it over...There is not even a landline where you can call,only a fax or e mail..they then process it and send it for "triaging" and then it gets referred to the appropriate clinic/hospital depending on where they live,,The patient then gets sent an appointment..,, It is no wonder this takes time!!

Today,the father rings in frantic after another sleepless night asking what we could do.... We e mailed the referral centre and first my manage spoke to them and then we e mailed back to say i wanted a chat..I called the senior NHS Commissioning manager in our area whom worked previously for our PCT .She was extremely understanding and helpful and though she had not come across such issues before agreed to raise my concerns with the relevant "people". Though I have no doubt many practitioners have had similar problems I expect many do not pursue the issue beyond the referral centre whom you can't even telephone!! I got a call from the head of the referral centre whom also was helpful and pulled out all the stops to get the referral paperwork speeded along.Unfortunately the fax machine of the referral centre in their area is not working so we are having to rely on a fast track Royal Mail service..."


Referrals can be a nightmare ,where no one except the bureaucracy is to blame. to answer a question as administrators have control of the system even if you were a dentist daughter unless you went private you would have exactly the same problems.

OP get a duplicate letter and send it yourself signed for on delivery.

Quentin

brook2jack wrote: »

If OP is in Manchester I thought it might be illuminating to read the experiences of a colleague in trying to get an urgent oral surgery referral and the problems involved


" In the Manchester area where this referral was made, you fill in a form and fax it over...There is not even a landline where you can call,only a fax or e mail..they then process it and send it for "triaging" and then it gets referred to the appropriate clinic/hospital depending on where they live,,The patient then gets sent an appointment..,, It is no wonder this takes time!!

Today,the father rings in frantic after another sleepless night asking what we could do.... We e mailed the referral centre and first my manage spoke to them and then we e mailed back to say i wanted a chat..I called the senior NHS Commissioning manager in our area whom worked previously for our PCT .She was extremely understanding and helpful and though she had not come across such issues before agreed to raise my concerns with the relevant "people". Though I have no doubt many practitioners have had similar problems I expect many do not pursue the issue beyond the referral centre whom you can't even telephone!! I got a call from the head of the referral centre whom also was helpful and pulled out all the stops to get the referral paperwork speeded along.Unfortunately the fax machine of the referral centre in their area is not working so we are having to rely on a fast track Royal Mail service..."


Referrals can be a nightmare ,where no one except the bureaucracy is to blame. to answer a question as administrators have control of the system even if you were a dentist daughter unless you went private you would have exactly the same problems.

OP get a duplicate letter and send it yourself signed for on delivery.

Well.......

Throughout I have made the point the OP's dentist could have done something before now! (Especially as he clearly believed the patient would only have to waut 6 weeks max).

Dentists have posted that this is not in the dentist's power, he can do nothing, and as he doesn't get paid for dealing with complaints shouldn't get one made.

You now report how your colleague did get involved, emailed and spoke to the right person - and got a result for his patient!

Seems to confirm what I've been saying.

So what is your point?

brook2jack

Actually no the colleague didn't get a result. The patient still hasn't been seen and the referral still hasn't got past the triage stage, they are still waiting. A 're referral has been sent by mail but as there is no phone there is little they can do to track.

This referral was for an urgent child emergency.

The point is the system is often rubbish but complaints should be addressed to people who can do something about it not the people on the front line who have to deal with it but are powerless to change it.

Quentin

brook2jack wrote: »

Actually no the colleague didn't get a result.....

When recounting what your colleague told you, you gave the impression a result had been achieved, (he had spoken to the right person who he said was "helpful"), and the fast track RM service was currently being used:

brook2jack wrote: »

..... I got a call from the head of the referral centre whom also was helpful and pulled out all the stops to get the referral paperwork speeded along.Unfortunately the fax machine of the referral centre in their area is not working so we are having to rely on a fast track Royal Mail service..."

At least your Manchester colleague made an effort and doesn't seem to be too worried the time he has put into this will be unpaid!

Quentin

brook2jack wrote: »

...The point is the system is often rubbish but complaints should be addressed to people who can do something about it not the people on the front line who have to deal with it but are powerless to change it.

Presumably you pointed out to your colleague how he had acted disgracefully and let down the rest of you by trying to get his patient seen, and did he realise he'd wasted precious fee earning time on this matter, and this is not what he gets paid to do?