Dentits and NHS

Quentin

The op has come to ask what to do after waiting a year to get an appointment.

Both sides disclaim any responsibility.

The dentist claims to have sent 2 letters. The hospital claim not to have had any letters.

One or the other has failed the patient.

Unless complaints are raised and escalated if needed to get to the bottom of this she will continue to be fobbed off by these 2 factions.

Her only contact so far is with the dentist. Who knows how efficient the dental practice is?

She is entitled to put in a complaint about this episode.

Or maybe the dentists with time to answer queries here can make a different suggestion to the op apart from "it's not the dentist's fault".

welshdent

I actually said if the dentist can demonstrate they have sent the letters i.e. they have copies so I am not assuming they have definitely sent them but I AM giving them the benefit of the doubt given I have been placed in exactly the same position. My point is there is no point raising hell with the dentist who, IF they have sent the letters in have acted in good faith and done their best. Believe me when I say, we have ZERO control of the system and it almost feels like the hospitals are having a laugh by bouncing referrals back because a full stop is missing or some other obscure reason. They want to try and stop people getting on the list in the first place because it makes their targets easier to hit. Its a pretty good excuse not to put you on if they "havent received the letter". I have heard first hand hospital staff being congratulated for coming up with ways of not seeing patients.

I actually did give some advice in my last post. I said go directly to the hospital to complain WITH copies of the dentists referral letters. That way 1) you know the dentist held up their end and 2) Complaints are directed at those responsible.

If the dentist has done what they are meant to do NOTHING can be gained by complaining to them. This isnt me sticking up for dentists. I am stating a fact. If they have demonstrated they have sent in the letter/letters then if you complain to them they can not make the hospital find the letter, they can not make the hospital see you sooner and they can not complain on your behalf. You would not get any compensation or good will gestures because they have not created any problems so my point is, if you are going to raise a complaint, raise it with those responsible and those that can actually make a difference.

If the dentist HAS NOT sent the letter thats a whole different kettle of fish. But speaking first hand as someone who has had someone screaming at me in a full reception room when I have already sent 3 letters in within a couple of weeks of each other, its not pleasant being blamed for something I have no control over.

Quentin

You seem to suggest 1) I have advised the OP to have a screaming match at the dentists surgery and2) you seem to be advising the OP to visit the hospital and confront them.

1) I didn't.

2) Your suggestion is just a further waste of the OP's time.

I am suggesting she makes formal complaints to both. Using their complaints procedure.

One or other is to blame, and by making formal complaints which can be escalated to the correct bodies for both will get some movement eventually.

One side is to blame, but she cannot rule out either.

Certainly from what we know the dentist hasn't bust a gut for her in over a year!

If the hospital involved is NHS, then as you (should) know, but clearly seem not to, when raising a complaint you must complain to the dentist who referred you in the first instance!

brook2jack

Actually reading the ops post I wonder if they have not been referred to hospital but to an oral surgery specialist centre, as they talked about having to pay for treatment and even on the nhs these centres collect nhs charges.

The referrals for these centres are often dealt with by a central waiting list dealt solely by administrative staff.

Unfortunately this has added a massive amount of bureaucracy to the referral system. This and the fact that in many areas in England wisdom teeth referrals are not part of waiting list guidelines , means in most places waiting list times are far in excess of six weeks , more normally months. Places where waiting lists are administered centrally the referrals are not sent onto the hospital or referral centre until they are near to the top of the waiting list.

If this is the case the dentist may well have sent referrals off but the place doing the work will not have got it yet.

What op can do is to ring the dental surgery to enquire if the waiting list is indeed sent to a central admin unit and if so get the contact number to check up where they are in the waiting list. As I said six weeks is unusually short time and I have to say local to me a year's wait is by no means unusual. Unfortunately so is multiple lost referrals , including urgent referrals. You could always ask for a copy of the referral letter and send it yourself signed delivery , it will not get you seen sooner but at least you will have proof it got to where it should.

welshdent

Quentin wrote: »

You seem to suggest 1) I have advised the OP to have a screaming match at the dentists surgery and2) you seem to be advising the OP to visit the hospital and confront them.

1) I didn't.

2) Your suggestion is just a further waste of the OP's time.

I am suggesting she makes formal complaints to both. Using their complaints procedure.

One or other is to blame, and by making formal complaints which can be escalated to the correct bodies for both will get some movement eventually.

One side is to blame, but she cannot rule out either.

Certainly from what we know the dentist hasn't bust a gut for her in over a year!

If the hospital involved is NHS, then as you (should) know, but clearly seem not to, when raising a complaint you must complain to the dentist who referred you in the first instance!

1) I suggested no such thing.
2) why? you suggest complaints to both I suggest complaining to 1 following asking the practice to have a copy of the referral letters they have sent. Do read my message rather than being deliberately difficult.
I have never heard any such thing of having to complain to an independent dental practitioner be they treating as patrt of an NHS treatment plan or not about a hospital service! You may or may not be aware but the "NHS" has zero involvement with most dental practices as they are all private businesses. It is nonsensical that you would complain via the dental practice. The complaint should go to the hospital or the PCT/LHB. ... AFTER they have just touched base with the dentist to get a copy of the referral letter. I know I would happily hand over a copy to a patient of any letter I had sent so they could take the issue higher. I would be delighted to help any way I could as dental hospital referral services are a joke. Perhaps more complaints may make them start behaving better

Quentin

welshdent wrote: »

I have never heard any such thing of having to complain to an independent dental practitioner be they treating as patrt of an NHS treatment plan or not about a hospital service! .....

These exchanges between us are hardly helping the OP!

She has nothing to lose in putting in complaints to both dentist and hospital.

In this case the dentist and the hospital appear to have let the patient down - as both have contradicted each other for over a year! It was the dentist who told her 6 weeks wait!

(You seem to think it impossible a dentist could be at fault - would you like some examples of complaints upheld against dentists?)

How to complain :

http://www.nhs.uk/choiceintheNHS/Rightsandpledges/complaints/Pages/NHScomplaints.aspx

If you're not happy with an NHS service you can make a complaint. You should complain to your service provider such as GP, dentist, hospital or pharmacist first.

welshdent

Goodness you don't give up do you? You clearly have a chip on your shoulder against dentists. I think I have been helpful with my advice but you seem to be on a more argumentative line. I haven't said the dentist is not at fault but conversely you do not seem to think the dentist is NOT at fault. The op has contacted the dentist and this is all we have to go on. The op has said the dentist has told them 2 letters have been sent. Now if you were to follow what I said, it was ask for copies of those letters which will show if the letters have been mailed or not. They can then go to the hospital or the pct or lhb with documentation demonstrating that someone on the hospital end is doing something wrong or Royal Mail has lost 2 letters. You are mixing up your service provisions. Assuming the dentist has sent the letters then what part of their service can be complained about? You can not complain to a dentist because the hospital has done something wrong. We'll sure you can try but you will be met with a well worded letter from a defence company explaining it's not anything to do with their client and you need to use different channels. You quote advice relating to treatment things such as treatment received. If you had bad care in hospital would you honestly write a complaint letter to your gp?
I am not sure what your reference to complaints against dentists has any relevance to this thread whatsoever. I am trying to give advice so the op does not target the wrong people. Why seem to be advising a scatter gun approach because you Do not believe the dentist would have sent the letters.

Quentin

welshdent wrote: »

Goodness you don't give up do you? .............

That's a bit rich.

I don't have any chip over dentists.

You say the dentist is blameless. But were the op the dentist's daughter/member of staff do you think the dentist wouldn't have got a 6 week appointment sorted long before over a year had passed?

I already pointed out these exchanges don't help the op, yet you want to prolong it.

You have the floor .

How many times you gonna keep repeating the same thing?

welshdent

Sigh. Ok Quentin I can see you are persisting with the idea I am absolving the dentist of all blame. In actual fact I am simply taking the OP on face value and assuming they are correct in stating the dentist HAS done their duty and sent the letters in. My advice has always stated though they should ask for copies of the letters which should back up if the dentist has lied or not but I am not privvy to their notes nor do I even know who the dentist is.

Assuming they HAVE sent the letters I fail to see what further blame CAN be attached to them?

We as dentists have zero influence on waiting time and zero influence after that letter leaves for the post box. We are not capable of ensuring an appointment is arranged within 6 weeks.

The reason I advise going straight to the hospital or the LHB/PCT for complaints is unlike the dentist, they can actually make a difference. Make enough noise and they are the people that control the waiting list and the appointment books. They are actually capable of making a difference and getting the OP seen quickly in their management of the complaint.
By all means send a complaining letter in to the dentist because the hospital have "lost" their letters but it will achieve the square root of zero.... assuming they have actually sent the letters in. They can not make the hospital do anything, they can not push the OP up a waiting list. A complaint can achieve nothing. Thats my point. If the OP wants to be seen and seen quickly a complaint to the dentist is IMO pointless if they have done their bit and sent the letters in.

However if they send copies of the letters in with a complaint letter and show that the letters were dated appropriately and mailed in good time it carries far more weight for the hospital to actually sort the situation out.

Quentin

welshdent wrote: »

I can see you are persisting with the idea I am absolving the dentist of all blame. .....

Assuming they HAVE sent the letters I fail to see what further blame CAN be attached to them?

Your continued "advice" must just be confusing the op.

The reason I advise going straight to the hospital or the LHB/PCT for complaints.....

The PCTs (primary care trusts) have long been abolished!

welshdent wrote: »

I can see you are persisting with the idea I am absolving the dentist of all blame. .....

Assuming they HAVE sent the letters I fail to see what further blame CAN be attached to them?....

You are happy to assume the dentist has done all they can, and equally happy to assume the fault is solely the hospitals.

Without exhausting complaints to both parties how will we get to the bottom of this as both deny responsibility.

I see you ignore my comment about what if the patient was the dentist's daughter? Would the dentist just let a 6 week wait stretch over a year of his daughter was waiting in pain?

What happened to duty of care?

Where has this patient been shown any care or concern by her dentist?

And your patronising sighing is unneccessary