HS2, is it right for the UK?

BertieUK

No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.

What a load of whaffle.

My post was merely saying that estimates cannot taken for granted because they mean as much as your recent post. Simply waffle.

David Cameron is looking for people like you to help him...

GingerSte

Yes, the benefits to the UK are far too great to ignore.

I repeat my questions, BertieUK.

What have I covered up?
What facts have I twisted?

BertieUK wrote: »

What a load of whaffle.

My post was merely saying that estimates cannot taken for granted because they mean as much as your recent post. Simply waffle.

David Cameron is looking for people like you to help him...

What do you mean by the bit in red? Am I not allowed my own opinion?

BertieUK

No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.

What you have quoted is your facts that you believe, to be your opinion, all I have quoted is the facts as they are, the dire truth is that estimates are merely speculation.

Anyone that makes quotations in RED are just desperate to make a point of issue. I merely speak as I find it.

I can at least state my location not merely where I lay my hat.

GingerSte

Yes, the benefits to the UK are far too great to ignore.

BertieUK wrote: »

What you have quoted is your facts that you believe, to be your opinion, all I have quoted is the facts as they are, the dire truth is that estimates are merely speculation.

Anyone that makes quotations in RED are just desperate to make a point of issue. I merely speak as I find it.

I can at least state my location not merely where I lay my hat.

So no covered up facts then. No facts twisted.

If you're going to resort to personal attacks, I'll leave this thread to you. Don't forget to mention the ginger thing.

John_Pierpoint

kabayiri wrote: »

I can explain a small part of the cost increase.

Boris Johnson's father was originally not within the range set to qualify for compensation (loss in value on your property).

But then he complained.

Now, remarkably, the distance has been expanded so he now is in range!

Funny that. Trebles all round at the club the night that news came through.

Tell me more !
Have you got a link ?

I do have a personal interest in transport corridors, having spotted a small ad in the wrong local paper inviting local residents to a small (wrong) community hall to view the unveiling of a new strategic road.
[One of the proposals went through the corner of my back garden]

There then followed a 10 year life expanding experience.
Your contribution to me was £15k
My contribution to you was trimming £750k off the estimate, and with a little help from "God", delivering the project ahead of schedule.

So I would be interested to learn about these new rules for compensating local land owners . [At the time there was a story circulating that the late Queen Mother had a quiet word in the right places and got the route of the M25 changed].

John

PS I have just found this link, which looks similar to the extra compensation offered to the residents of the two "villages" north of Heathrow, when the new runway was looking more like a certainty 10 years ago.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/property-owners-protected-by-hs2-compensation-scheme

I can see that some residents will suffer 10 years of disruption and end up chewing their elbows because they have no access to the new journey opportunities - at least now I can leave my home and get to a traffic jam on the M25 in 15 minutes. Unfortunately the Luddites on the local council meant that the HS1 park and ride station is in Ebbsfleet on the wrong side of the Estuary.

I think I would swap the constant roar of a motorway for the flup - flup - flup of a passing high speed train.

If you want to experiment, go to an out door concert here and compare the two offerings for yourself.

http://www.roh.org.uk/about/bp-big-screens/purfleet

BertieUK

No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.

GingerSte wrote: »

So no covered up facts then. No facts twisted.

If you're going to resort to personal attacks, I'll leave this thread to you. Don't forget to mention the ginger thing.

Mention the Ginger thing - what is that all about?. Leave the building.

cells

No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.

GingerSte wrote: »

Where did you get that figure (£50B for all of Birmingham)? I hope that was plain ignorance rather than deliberate misleading.

The Birmingham metropolitan area has a population of 2.4 million. Let's make the maths easy an assume 2.4 people per household (conservatively high, as many people will live in singles or couples rather than families). That's 1 million households, giving £50,000 per household by your calculation. Are you saying the average house price in Birmingham is less than £50k?

Except even then, your calculation is bogus. The £50B is actually £42B. HS2 doesn't just connect London to Birmingham. It also connects Manchester (population: 2.55 Million), Leeds (1.78 Million), Nottingham (0.73 Million) and Sheffield (0.69 Million). By my maths that's a total of 8.15 million people, and 3.4 million households (again, using 2.4 people per household). This brings the cost down to £12,300 per household. I can assure you the average price of a house outside of London is more than this. (Those population figures from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom by the way)

Even then, that's conservative. Those five places (excluding London - why did you exclude London from your statement by the way?) aren't the only places served by HS2. You've got Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, York, Preston, the Potteries and more that will also be served by HS2. Then you've got all the other places that will benefit from increased capacity on the West Coast, East Coast and Midland Main Lines?

Birmingham has roughly 420,000 homes/flats and a population of just over 1 million

The rebuild cost of which woild be under £100k average.
420k homes x £100k =42B for all of Birmingham homes to be rebuilt

You could look up the average Birmingham house price on land registry im on my phone so its not easy right now. Its probably around 125k

So again

420k homes x £125k = £52.5 billion.

So yes this line is likely going to cost more than all the homes in Birmingham


Why are you trying to quote a larger area? Sure the line will link more places but to be an hinest discussion you need to be frank and admit mist of the people of Birmingham will never ever use the line. I woild not be surprised if 80% of the people of Birmingham never ince use the line in their entire lives

This is a massive subsidy for the rich and the silly paid for by the poor the middle and the 98% of the people of the uk thay will never use it

cells

No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.

If the train line was such a good idea why not finance and buold it privately and put all the cost into tickets.

£50B over 50 years would cost something like £5B a year plus operating costs

How many people do they think will use the line yearly?

And what will happen to the old lines passenger numbers?

ILW

No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.

cells wrote: »

If the train line was such a good idea why not finance and buold it privately and put all the cost into tickets.

£50B over 50 years would cost something like £5B a year plus operating costs

How many people do they think will use the line yearly?

And what will happen to the old lines passenger numbers?

The Golden of of British railways was funded by private investors. Some made a lot and some lost a lot (as it should be).

wotsthat

ILW wrote: »

The Golden of of British railways was funded by private investors. Some made a lot and some lost a lot (as it should be).

AIUI UK railways have failed to deliver any significant shareholder return but they have been vital to Britain's economic growth.

The whole process is highly politicised which adds cost and risk. As a standalone project it may never make a profit and will take many years to recoup the build cost. As a private investor I wouldn't touch it.

We need grown up politicians to decide whether the taxpayer should fund this and convince us that the return (profit + economic benefit) is worth it.