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HS2, is it right for the UK?
Comments
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No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »They did.
And concluded they'll be little different to today.
Telecommuting or remote working simply doesn't work for the majority of staff in most companies.
And business travel can't be replaced by videoconferencing.
You simply don't get the same interaction, no matter how good the system.
You seem to manage 'interacting' (sorry - winding up) Graham and co quite well via telecomms
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No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.It costs me almost £300 to travel to London and back on the same day for a reasonable London start (Say 9-10AM arrival). I can drive down, park and drive back, albeit a longer journey but for under £100. I can fly for less than the cost of a train ticket.
What would be the benefit to me? Oh wait, there isn't one0 -
I
Hamish beat me to it. Look at his reply. You don't need to book 7 weeks in advance or go on the slow train to save money.
Hamish doesn't do the commute.
Trainline 06:05 from Liverpool to Euston tomorrow, open return (just in case I fancy a beer before I return with my new chums) - £289.Return from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston change journey
Out Tuesday 05 Nov 2013 Liverpool Lime Street LIV to London Euston EUS
Earlier
Later
Outward times Option 1 2 3 4 Depart LIV 06:05 LIV 07:00 LIV 07:48 LIV 08:48 Arrive EUS 08:22 EUS 09:03 EUS 09:56 EUS 10:57 Duration 2h 17m 2h 3m 2h 8m 2h 9m Changes 0 0 0 0By National Express coach, this journey takes 5hr 25m. Tickets from £12.00
Open return tickets Ticket Type 1 2 3 4
Single tickets - Outward leg Ticket Type 1 2 3 4 Anytime Return Travel any time of day, return within 1 month.
ANYTIME RETURN- Travel any time of day, return within 1 month.
- This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.
1 Adult @ £289.00 £289.00 Total: £289.00
Cheapest £289.00
ANYTIME RETURN- Travel any time of day, return within 1 month.
- This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.
1 Adult @ £289.00 £289.00 Total: £289.00
SOR, £289.00 Outward 06:05
SOR, £289.00 Outward 07:00
SOR, £289.00 Outward 07:48
SOR, £289.00 Outward 08:48
First Anytime Return Travel any time of day, return within 1 month.
FIRST ANYTIME RETURN- Travel any time of day, return within 1 month.
- This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.
1 Adult @ £441.00 £441.00 Total: £441.00
£441.00
FIRST ANYTIME RETURN- Travel any time of day, return within 1 month.
- This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.
1 Adult @ £441.00 £441.00 Total: £441.00
FOR, £441.00 Outward 06:05
FOR, £441.00 Outward 07:00
FOR, £441.00 Outward 07:48
FOR, £441.00 Outward 08:48
Results are based on the fastest available trains. Click here to check if slower routes with chea
Read more at http://www.thetrainline.com/buytickets/combinedmatrix.aspx?Command=TimeTable#Duk6JwT58uIRbjAD.99"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.It costs me almost £300 to travel to London and back on the same day for a reasonable London start (Say 9-10AM arrival). I can drive down, park and drive back, albeit a longer journey but for under £100. I can fly for less than the cost of a train ticket.
What would be the benefit to me? Oh wait, there isn't one
You're obviously not trying to be MSE.
As I understand it, if you book your ticket now for November 12th - 2027, and forego things like seat (perhaps offer to be the relief driver?), you could travel on HS2 for less than £60
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No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.You're obviously not trying to be MSE.
As I understand it, if you book your ticket now for November 12th - 2027, and forego things like seat (perhaps offer to be the relief driver?), you could travel on HS2 for less than £60
Ah I knew I had it wrong somewhere!! I think you're £60 would allow to get from one end of the station to the other. While standing on the step.
Seriously though, looking at some travel prices it is ridiculous on the current setup - how will that change with HS2 determined to make a profit to recover the vast expense?0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »They did.
And concluded they'll be little different to today.
Telecommuting or remote working simply doesn't work for the majority of staff in most companies.
And business travel can't be replaced by videoconferencing.
You simply don't get the same interaction, no matter how good the system.
I have spent a number of meetings where members would often be "working" during the meeting on their hand helds and notebooks.
Video conferencing does work when you know the majority of the participants. I accept if you don't know them face to face is better and there will always be instances when getting together would be better.
Many staff work remotely in modern businesses , with hot desking and lack of sufficient meeting rooms in many, it is often much more productive."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
Yes, the benefits to the UK are far too great to ignore.shortchanged wrote: »
Yes my current opinion may be against HS2 but I'm willing to be persuaded if the case is certainly strong enough.
I'm fairly ambivalent and wouldn't mind spending elsewhere, however, such a poll as yours is always going to be flawed in the sense if you ran the same poll in the 19th C on whether to build London's sewers or underground, or later the M1, you would always get a no vote.
Same with The Eifel Tower or even electrification of a nation - people in all such cases claimed these things were a waste of space and money.
Even Radio was for a few years seen as a silly unnecessary thing and people didn't want the expense of building national masts etc.
Steam driven ships, very costly to the national purse were viewed as utterly pointless as the navy carried on using sail even once engines were installed - people nearly always fail to see the benefits of the new.
Now the funny thing is of course that later people see such things as completely natural and with an obvious place in national life.
I recall most people not wanting the M25 and saying the internet was a pointless thing, that online shopping would never take hold.
I will guarantee the next generation will see HS2 as entirely natural and 'obviously' needed.0 -
Yes, the benefits to the UK are far too great to ignore.Find me a peak time train from Manchester to London tomorrow,)
Tomorrow at peak time it's £131 each way.
Not cheap, but significantly less than the £165 each way you quoted.
The following day it drops to £131 out and £51 return.
The day after it drops to £67 out and £27 return.
And then gets cheaper the more in advance you book.
The vast majority of business travel that can't be done by car has at least a few days notice in my experience.“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
Yes, the benefits to the UK are far too great to ignore.
- By enabling businesses to take advantage of lower costs in provincial cities, while maintaining ease of access to the capital. Why pay someone in London £40k to do a job, when you can pay someone in Brum £30k, and they will have the same (or better) standard of living
"They" can do more of it, from further afield. Bear in mind that I was answering a specific question about advantages from high speed.- By enabling businesspeople to access markets further afield (meet face to face, give presentations, tour factories, sell products, carry out quality assurance, etc). Not just connecting the provincial cities with London, but also (using the proposed HS1-2 link) to cities in near-Europe: France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Western Germany etc.
I don't know if they can carry what they need. I don't know what they are carrying! I never said everybody would use it all the time. You make decisions base on your own circumstances.- By reducing the time spent in transit, reducing the costs for those businesses where people already travel. This also includes making trips that would have required an overnight stay into possible day trips. Saves on things like hotel bills, making businesses more profitable.
I was specifically answering a question about speed, remember! Stupid start and finish times also mean high speed is better, as it makes the "setting off" and "arriving home" times slightly less stupid. Plus I never said anything about high speed affecting the need for continuity over several days. A bit of a straw man, I think.- By increasing the amount of business that can be done in the capital, without cramming more houses in (as employees can live further afield if necessary).
Done better with higher speed.
- By increasing the amount of business that can be done, as travellers spend a greater proportion of their journey at their seat on the train compared with air travel (check in, passport control etc). People can get on with their work much easier at their seat than while checking in, etc, as the journey is less broken up.
I don't know. I haven't asked everyone in the UK who uses a train. I was comparing it with air travel (a comparison that can be done with high-speed rail), where you would only be in your seat for a smaller proportion of your journey, and messing about with check in, finding you gate etc at the airport for the rest.- By allowing people to spend more time (and therefore money) in London, knowing they can get home in speed and comfort. Again, trips that would have required an overnight stay could be done that day. Want to grab a pint or a glass of wine with the people you've just done business with, and cement those relationships? You're not driving home, so it is do-able.
I never said everything was about London. I mentioned the above as one possible advantage based on speed (answering one specific question), not the entire argument for HS2.- In fact, with the Heathrow spur mentioned as part of HS2 a while back, more passengers could use Heathrow from places like Leeds and Manchester.
That's what the Heathrow spur was meant to do: provide a link from HS2 to Heathrow so people wouldn't have to go into London. This has been replaced with a station at Old Oak Common, from which people can get Heathrow Express or Crossrail.- By consolidating the cities served as alternatives to London, allowing businesses to cluster and feed off each other.
Agreed.
That's just the "faster" bit. I haven't even mentioned capacity (on the railway at least), which I believe is the main part of the argument for HS2.
Will actually be much faster, in reality? I appreciate the argument is switching to capacity, perhaps they should have majored on that in the first place.
It was the government that sold it on capacity, if anyone. The rail industry has focussed almost exclusively on capacity, especially for the Birmingham to London section.
As we correspond Cameron has instructed the HS2 "fat controller" to shave the budget. Smacks of desperation if the benefits are as promised.
You'd rather they didn't try and save costs? You seem to want it both ways!0 -
No, it's a waste of money and it could be better spent elsewhere.HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Tomorrow at peak time it's £131 each way.
Not cheap, but significantly less than the £165 each way you quoted.
The following day it drops to £131 out and £51 return.
The day after it drops to £67 out and £27 return.
And then gets cheaper the more in advance you book.
The vast majority of business travel that can't be done by car has at least a few days notice in my experience.
So you have failed to find me a train ticket tomorrow for £75.
Sigh...I expected so much more
It's okay Hamish, I don't need to go tomorrow
(phew) 0
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