Grangemouth dispute: Ineos says petrochemical plant will close

chucknorris

vivatifosi wrote: »

That was my thought too. I have a public sector pension and it is not final salary (career average). It is not a bad deal, but it is not as good as the pensions that most people think we have. I have to put more in and get a lower rate of return than previous schemes.

I'm in the TPS (teachers' pension fund) my contributions have gone up from 6.4% to (approx.) 12% next year (currently 10.1%) and it also moves to career average (from final salary) and to CPI from RPI inflation. But I would class it as moving from unbelievably excellent to excellent (rather than merely 'not a bad deal'). It is IMO still far too much for the tax payer to subsidise, people might think that I am a hypocrite or greedy for having that opinion and not opting out, but obviously if I am in it I intend to take advantage.

EDIT: I wouldn't like it if they moved to a DC pension but I would understand why, although I would immediately retire (subject to notice period and replacing me) if that happened.

grizzly1911

chucknorris wrote: »

I'm in the TPS (teachers' pension fund) my contributions have gone up from 6.4% to (approx.) 12% next year (currently 10.1%) and it also moves to career average (from final salary) and to CPI from RPI inflation. But I would class it as moving from unbelievably excellent to excellent (rather than merely 'not a bad deal'). It is IMO still far too much for the tax payer to subsidise, people might think that I am a hypocrite or greedy for having that opinion and not opting out, but obviously if I am in it I intend to take advantage.

EDIT: I wouldn't like it if they moved to a DC pension but I would understand why, although I would immediately retire (subject to notice period and replacing me) if that happened.

I heard on the news that the University scheme is now under scrutiny with a sizeable funding gap. I thought about you when I heard the news.

How does this compare to the Teachers scheme?

Presumably any funding increase will in part have to be met in higher student fees, pushing the burden onto them through more repayments (taxation) in the future or to be ultimately written off by future administrations against some other can kicking wheeze.

Looking forward I wonder how long it will before those debts aren't written off but attached to assets in some way - like the ederley care provisions under review.

chucknorris

grizzly1911 wrote: »

I heard on the news that the University scheme is now under scrutiny with a sizeable funding gap. I thought about you when I heard the news.

How does this compare to the Teachers scheme?

Presumably any funding increase will in part have to be met in higher student fees, pushing the burden onto them through more repayments (taxation) in the future or to be ultimately written off by future administrations against some other can kicking wheeze.

Looking forward I wonder how long it will before those debts aren't written off but attached to assets in some way - like the ederley care provisions under review.

I've heard of the 'University scheme' but as far as I know all our lecturers are in the TPS, so I don't know much about that scheme. I don't think fees feature as it is the tax payer that pays the subsidy, university fees received (as far as I know) didn't actually go up in the recent change, it was a switch from the tax payer paying to the students paying.

grizzly1911

chucknorris wrote: »

I've heard of the 'University scheme' but as far as I know all our lecturers are in the TPS, so I don't know much about that scheme. I don't think fees feature as it is the tax payer that pays the subsidy, university fees received (as far as I know) didn't actually go up in the recent change, it was a switch from the tax payer paying to the students paying.

Does any body know how much subsidy Universities get now compared to before the student fee increase (the 9Kone). I was under the impression that this removed a good proportion of government direct funding to th establishments.

zagubov

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Does any body know how much subsidy Universities get now compared to before the student fee increase (the 9Kone). I was under the impression that this removed a good proportion of government direct funding to th establishments.

Yep. Students at 16-19 courses (as in colleges) cost about £6k p.a. Students at uni cost £12k p.a. approx and £9 k comes from fees, leaving universities to find the other 25% of costs.

The college sector uses the Teachers pension scheme. DW works at a uni and her University pension is almost indistinguishable from the TP one as far as I can see.

chucknorris

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Does any body know how much subsidy Universities get now compared to before the student fee increase (the 9Kone). I was under the impression that this removed a good proportion of government direct funding to th establishments.

As far as I know it was a straight swop, i.e. like for like funding. I'm unaware of any subsidy given to universities, the subsidy that I was referring to was the subsidy to the lecturing staffs' pensions. I believe that the university pays about 14% into the pension fund, so presumably the taxpayer pays the extra cost. But I am merely a lecturer and I have no inside knowledge of the universities administration, so it is quite possible that there are gaps in my understanding of the way the system works.

zagubov

grizzly1911 wrote: »

The companies were badly managed, complacent and didn't keep up. There was a lack of investment and they became uncompetitive. We had pilaged an empire and in turn sold them our poor goods for so long we didn't lift our game soon enough.

Germany and Japan were rebuilt after the second world war whilst we "invested" our money on defence and an arms race.

The unions played their part but it wasn't their fault in the way you portray.

For such a succinct post there's a heck of a lot of good content here.

grizzly1911

CLAPTON wrote: »

Well it was impossible to introduce new technology that reduced jobs.

So lots of money could be spent but no savings made... only a winner for your view of economics

We lost the sales and breadth of exports at the same time because we had been overtaken.

Automation and equipment capable of producing quality goods doesn't have to result in job reductions. The right quality products will be in demand increasing employment opportunities.

"With a workforce of 106,000 employees worldwide, BMW is a renowned supporter of social dialogue. Its commitment to working closely with employee representatives has historical roots dating back to the late 1950s. It was in this period that the works council played a significant role in forming and supporting a consortium headed by the Quandt family (still the main BMW shareholders) to save BMW from extinction. This fact has never been forgotten and remains an integral influence in moulding the way the firm is governed. In addition, BMW supports the United Nations’ Global Compact and the International Labour Organization’s standards. In terms of trade union representation, IG Metall is the main labour organiser, with a union density of about 80%. IG Metall also has a seat on the supervisory board.

Loughton_Monkey

grizzly1911 wrote: »

.....BMW supports the United Nations’ Global Compact .....

... despite it being a competitor to the 3-series?

CLAPTON

grizzly1911 wrote: »

We lost the sales and breadth of exports at the same time because we had been overtaken.

Automation and equipment capable of producing quality goods doesn't have to result in job reductions. The right quality products will be in demand increasing employment opportunities.

"With a workforce of 106,000 employees worldwide, BMW is a renowned supporter of social dialogue. Its commitment to working closely with employee representatives has historical roots dating back to the late 1950s. It was in this period that the works council played a significant role in forming and supporting a consortium headed by the Quandt family (still the main BMW shareholders) to save BMW from extinction. This fact has never been forgotten and remains an integral influence in moulding the way the firm is governed. In addition, BMW supports the United Nations’ Global Compact and the International Labour Organization’s standards. In terms of trade union representation, IG Metall is the main labour organiser, with a union density of about 80%. IG Metall also has a seat on the supervisory board.

probably the employee works council representatives were not committed communists dedicated to overthrowing the German government.