Smart Meters

gem1978_2

martinthebandit wrote: »

Really? Does that mean Smart meters are a really dumb idea?

Who'd a thunk it?

Yes really they make mistakes all the time! It should be illegal for an essensial service to be cut easily with a click of a mouse by a call center in bangladish!

what if a grannie has some computer problem with receiving her pension, the DD for energy fails her power is cut off during a cold snap and she freezes to death the next day?

joncombe

I'm against the installation of a Smart Meter for a number of reasons. The primary one is I suspect it will lead to peak and off-peak pricing and so make energy more expensive for most or life less conveniant (e.g. doing the washing at night). There are privacy concerns, as it would be fairly simple for an energy supplier to mine the data and work out when you are in and when you are out.

What about security? I suspect all it would take is someone to hack into whatever network these are on (and I think it's mobile based) and work out how to remotely turn off peoples energy and you have chaos. Yes it shouldn't happen, but can we be sure?

I suggest reading this leaflet.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/245736/smart_meters_domestic_leaflet.pdf

New products and services - to help better
manage energy. In future suppliers will be able
to offer different prices at different times of day.
Smart appliances could be set to switch on when
energy is cheaper.

This is one of the headline "benefits" on the first page. So I think it's clear, once enough people have Smart Meters we will face different prices at different times of the day (I.E. peak pricing). I very much doubt this will work in favour of the majority of consumers. Worse, the comment about Smart Appliances. Whilst the spin is positive (turn on when it's cheaper) in reality I suspect this is actually geared around having appliances being able to be turned on and off remotely by your energy supplier (I've heard it is already being looked at for fridges and freezers).

Do you really want your appliances switching off at the whim of someone else? Yes of course you're not forced to buy "Smart Appliances" yet and the leaflet only says "could" not "would". But I've a feeling in due course Smart Appliances will be the only ones available (like ordinary light bulbs being banned), so your energy supplier can decide to turn off your appliances at time of high demand/low consumption.

I think this is far more likely in future. Successive governments have failed to invest in enough power stations to replace those being closed. I'm not convinced we can rely on Solar and Wind for more than a small percentage of our energy. In the UK in winter it is common to have very cold, overcast days with little or no wind. On these days energy demand will be higher (cold, so more people with heating on, dark so more lights on etc) but the amount of energy generated by solar and wind will be much lower (because there is less light because of the shorter winter days and less wind). So we still need to have other sources to act as back up and most power stations can't just be switched on and off. I don't believe though we are as a country investing enough in new power stations (and I don't think the energy suppliers will do it if they think the Government will do it for them). So I suspect much of the drive for SmartMeters is so that "non essential" appliances can be turned off when we are likely to have more energy demand than supply.

Combine this with more of a push for green (often electric) cars and it is clear this will increase consumption still further. So I'll be holding out on having a Smart Meter. That said I don't think it will do much good - I suspect it will be compulsory to have them fitted in all new properties (maybe it is already). Probably in future in rental properties too (like you have to have an annual boiler service and certificate). Then if most people allow them you will probably find when you move house you will have to have one because so far I've not seen any documents that say you can apply to have such a meter removed, only that you can't be forced to have one installed in the first place.

Road_Hog

gem1978 wrote: »

whot? they can just cut you off with a smart meter without visiting or writing to you?!

No, at the moment they still need to apply for a warrant, but do not need to enter your premises. But rest assured, that this unecessary expense will be dropped as a cost saving measure and then they will be able to do as you've posted.

I'll give you an example of how this sort of legislation happens. Back in the early days of the B.liar government, they introduced a bill that allowed clubcard information to be passed onto the NHS, in case of any health care issue or poisened food. So that the NHS could contact all purchasers of infected food and get them in for a check up.

Sounds good, doesn't it. Once the bill was almost through, they amended it to include all government departments. The first department it was handed to, was the Inland Revenue, so that they could measure your expenditure against your declared income.

happenstance

The estimated bill for this insane smart meter installation program keeps rising, currently at 12 billion, so you should double that to get a good idea of the eventual bill. Obviously us dopes will have to pay this bill.

In the US you are arrested if you refuse one, and over here some people are saying giving people choices is negative. Even though we have a choice at the moment, people that refuse them will probably be unfairly overcharged.

G4S has won the contracts to mine the data with very sophisticated tools that can tell exactly what appliances are on and who is at home and build up a profile on each household.

Good job they have an exemplary record and it is unheard of for data to be lost / stolen.

Anyone with above average intelligence would refuse one.

macman

sacsquacco wrote: »

Mines in the cellar, works faultlessly. The latest Mk 2 BG smarts are supposed to be much better using making use of satellite roaming. some I have found to be a bit hit or miss when they are in a generally poor signal areas

EDF have some work to do then.
How does 'satellite roaming' come into it-surely they're all linked to the nearest 3G mast?
I was told that EDF use two networks, and if it won't get a signal on one of those (which is what they tested for on arrival)-forget it.

insanegloss

happenstance wrote: »

Anyone with above average intelligence would refuse one.

I wholly disagree with your post.

Mostly, I see the arguments as being consumer focused on here, and I wouldn't expect anything else, after all this is MSE for consumers.

However, the bigger picture is more daunting in terms of energy. We have to do more with less these days and the only real way of achieving this is through smart meters. A smart meter can enable time of use tariffs, smart appliances etc that smooth out demand, which is important as short notice demand is picked up by expensive generation. It's not only that, bill shock due to underestimated bills should become a thing of the past (guess what about 50% of calls to energy companies are about), reducing costs in that area.

Also, once the infrastructure is in place, you don't need to spend that money again as you have the thing in place.

happenstance

insanegloss wrote: »

I wholly disagree with your post.

If you "wholly disagree with my post" why don't you even try to defend some of the flaws i've pointed out?

We have an energy crisis due to years of under investment due to the short term nature of the country and politics.

If time of use tariffs come in, i'm sure it will be just to extract even more money from consumers. Great I can use my only high power devices (shower, washing machine, oven and dishwasher) after 1am, but I can't as they are too loud or I will be in bed.

Why spend 12bn (24bn) on a new infrastructure when the current one is working fine? Also the ongoing costs of smart meters are huge, they cost ten times the price of a normal meter, are more prone to errors and need a wireless signal.

Great ideal smart appliances, gives them the power to turn off my cooker remotely so they dont have to bother investing in upgrading the power network to cope with demand.

Smart meters are like putting a bit of sellotape over a leaking pipe. Its taking more control away from consumers.

Road_Hog

insanegloss wrote: »

I wholly disagree with your post.

Reading the quote and your reply together, makes quite funny reading.

insanegloss wrote: »

However, the bigger picture is more daunting in terms of energy. We have to do more with less these days and the only real way of achieving this is through smart meters.

No it isn't. We could crack on with building replacement nuclear power stations and scrap HS2 to pay for them. We could carry on running our coal fired power stations until we had the nuclear ones up and running.

Government Climate change committee chairman Tim Yeo steps down to concflict of interest.

The current chairman Lord Deben (John BSE Gummer) had to stand down from one job with a green energy company, but still has a job with Veolia Water, which has a thriving eco business connecting windfarms to the National Grid.

And don't forget Cameron's father in law wwho makes £1,000 a day from windfarm subsidies.

And that's just the ones I can remember off of the top of my head. Green energy is about making money, not saving the planet.

Road_Hog

happenstance wrote: »

Great ideal smart appliances, gives them the power to turn off my cooker remotely so they dont have to bother investing in upgrading the power network to cope with demand.

I can see a great business opportunity, for importing current style appliances, when only smart appliances are on sale in Britain.

You can stilll import the old style boilers from Europe (Italy), and there are UK suppliers, getting them fitted is the sligh snag.

giraffe69

Whatever the rights and wrongs of these meters neither the companies nor the Government will quickly or possibly ever want to seek to force people into having these meters so refuse if you wish to do so. Even when they are more common place you will still be able to refuse but eventually pricing will be altered so that it is in your interest to have such a meter. There will still be those who won't have them because a bad man from Russia will have their secret information.

If rates end up cheaper overnight or at weekends then devices will adapt. We have had Economy 7 for over 35 years. Many devices already have timers so they can be run overnight. If electricity is cheaper then more people will bother to do so and then if that happens we will need fewer power stations to meet the peak of demand.