What do Tesco do to their fuel??

Iceweasel

Paradigm wrote: »

Tesco have a stake in Greenergy..... http://www.fasttrack.co.uk/fasttrack/leagues/dbtop100Details.asp?siteID=4&compID=1735&yr=2012 so it's reasonable to assume that Tesco receive their fuel from Greenergy.

OK then - perhaps I should have said that Tesco do not have their own unique dedicated supplier, supplying them alone.

My point was that everyone and his dog get their fuel from Greenergy, who in turn are storing fuel in terminals from only a handful of refineries.

I'm more than a little concerned that Greenergy seem to have almost a monopoly stranglehold on fuel storage and distribution in the UK.

GolfBravo

Iceweasel wrote: »

But just look at the names - some are conspicuous with their absence - where is Shell, where is BP?

Fuel is a commodity. Orange juice concentrate is a commodity. Wheat is a commodity. Sugar, rice, coffee beans, electricity, gas, etc.

All of the above refineries sell a commodity: petroleum. There is no product differentiation. Shell, BP, Esso, etc. buy this commodity from refineries and apply product differentiation (brand and associated perceived quality) to charge more £££. They may add some fairy dust (extra fuel additives) to charge even more, but that's about it.

PS
IMHO majority of those "bad diesel reports" are actually due to DPF regeneration. Example: my wife has this habit of driving her car until the low fuel light comes on, the computer shows 20 miles to empty, and the fuel gauge is on E for excellent. And then she eventually puts in half a tank of normal Esso diesel motion lotion.

She kept driving the car with the low fuel warning light on for 5 days, all very short trips: school runs, local tescos, etc. On Thursday she put in half a tank of fuel, and would you believe it, "within 5 minutes the engine started to sound strange, there was some black smoke visible under acceleration, very jerky acceleration, flat spots", etc. The car was like that for 2 days - the car was actually attempting to regenerate the DPF.

I took the car for a drive this morning and it started the DPF regeneration process almost immediately (rear demister automatically on, radiator fan on, took about 15 minutes in total) and then behaved OK again. The reason why it started the DPF regeneration straight after refuelling (but eventually didn't complete it due to short distances) is very simple: almost all modern diesels will not regenerate the DPF when the low fuel warning light is on. As soon as you add fuel the light goes off and the DPF regeneration process starts almost immediately. So people may associate the DPF regeneration process with refuelling/"bad fuel" - my wife did.

GolfBravo

Iceweasel wrote: »

I'm more than a little concerned that Greenergy seem to have almost a monopoly stranglehold on fuel storage and distribution in the UK.

Wikipedia:
Founded as a bedroom start-up in 1992, Greenergy has grown rapidly to become one of the UK’s largest road fuel suppliers, supplying about one fifth of the UK’s fuel.
Customers of Greenergy include the major oil companies and supermarkets (diesel and petrol for retail sale and biofuel for onward blending), as well as bus and logistics companies (diesel for fleet use).
Greenergy manages complex supply chains to source and supply fuel:

1. International purchasing
2. Petrol and diesel supply
3. Fuel manufacturing
4. Biofuel supply

With an average growth rate of nearly 60% for the past 5 years...

jase1

WTFH wrote: »

Modern diesels most certainly are fit for purpose.
Modern diesels also run perfectly well on fuel as specified in the manufacturers handbook. Note, the specification in the handbook may not be the same as the specification at the pump.

Here's an example from my petrol days... I had a car with a GM designed 2.2l petrol engine in it. I could put UK petrol in it with no problem. In the handbook it warned me not to use petrol to a different spec. The spec I wasn't to use was that sold in France. Is it the engine manufacturers fault that French petrol is a different standard to the rest of Europe? No.
Is it up to the engine manufacturer to redesign their engine so I could fill up in France? No.

Modern diesels are more complex than their counterparts of 10+ years ago, but they also fall in line with modern emissions requirements and are pretty impressive in terms of performance. If a modern diesel is serviced appropriately, is taken for regular blasts and has regular oil changes, it will work for years to come.

To say that all modern diesels are not "fit for purpose" shows a lack of understanding of modern motoring regulations and engine design.

What you are saying is entirely true, if the reports of diesel engines choking on supermarket fuel are false.

The fact is that the supermarket diesel meets or exceeds the minimum standard laid out in European regulations. These are the standards that both the fuel companies and the engine manufacturers must adhere to -- there is no discrepancy between the two and no caveat laid out in the engine manufacturer documentation. Therefore, either the engines are not adversely affected by this fuel, in which case this entire thread is moot, or indeed the engines are not fit for purpose.

You will note that I did not say that "all modern diesels are not fit for purpose" (in that sense your comment is a straw man argument actually) -- I was referring specifically to a hypothetical diesel engine design that is incapable of being run on supermarket fuel without reacting badly to it -- so the story goes, they're only OK if additional factors are added to the fuel to compensate for what is clearly an insufficiently engineered design.

Whether a diesel engine performs well, or is a technical wonder, is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. We are discussing engines that apparently are unable to run on standards-compliant fuel.

As the cars are advertised as being capable of running on such fuel, by definition if they are unable to do so, they are unfit for purpose. That is not opinion, it is empirical fact.

And if they are able to do so, we're all being spun a line by divvies.

Either way, unless someone can come up with some evidence that the supermarket fuel does not meet specification, this thread is going nowhere.

Ultrasonic

bigjl wrote: »

On the subject of vehicle manuals, don't they usually have some kind of vague statement saying that only good quality fuels should be used.

Out of curiousity I just had a look in the manual for my 8 year old Skoda and it states the following:

Your vehicle can be driven with the following grades of diesel fuel:

Diesel fuel with a cetane number of at least CN 49. (The cetane number CN is a measure of the ignition performance of the diesel fuel.) Diesel fuel must comply with the DIN EN 590.

Biofuel (RME rape oil methyl ester fuel) must comply with the EN 14 214.

Ultrasonic

Iceweasel wrote: »

I'm more than a little concerned that Greenergy seem to have almost a monopoly stranglehold on fuel storage and distribution in the UK.

It's only around 20% of the UK market according to Paradigm's link above? Or at least it was in 2012.

Ultrasonic

GolfBravo wrote: »

...almost all modern diesels will not regenerate the DPF when the low fuel warning light is on. As soon as you add fuel the light goes off and the DPF regeneration process starts almost immediately. So people may associate the DPF regeneration process with refuelling/"bad fuel" - my wife did.

I didn't know that, very interesting. As you say this could well be a factor in many 'my car runs bady on such and such diesel' stories.

colino

The Big Boys are still lurking in the background. There are truly only a handful of energy companies around the world and through third-party share-holdings, strategic alliances and other distancing techniques, they still pull all of the strings.

cardinalbiggles

Iceweasel wrote: »

But just look at the names - some are conspicuous with their absence - where is Shell, where is BP?

In the case of Grangemouth both Shell and BP tankers come out of there all day long I can assure you of that.

Paradigm

An interesting (to me anyway) side issue....

The EN 590 standard was revised in 2009 & one of the changes was to increase the maximum permitted % of FAME (bio content) from 5 to 7% in road diesel.

After reading this article http://www.iea-amf.org/content/fuel_information/fatty_acid_esters/compatibility#compatibility_cars_materials

I'm wondering if some of the problems are related to the amount of bio in regular fuel.

FAME in diesel fuel presents risk on engine durability. Biodiesel esters have tendency to form sludge and engine deposits, and to plug diesel particulate filters (DPF). Today, diesel cars and vehicles are increasingly equipped with DPF to meet new, stringent emission legislation. In biodiesel esters, for example, K, Na, P, glycerides, and glycerine may be present originating from feedstock and catalysts used in production of the biodiesel. These elements may cause filter plugging and engine deposits.

I remember a spate of posts some time ago regarding blocked fuel filters & while engine manufacturers should have made sure that their engines are compatible with the latest revisions, are non genuine or "pattern" parts made to the same standard... particularly fuel filters?