Do you believe fracking in the UK will bring lower consumer energy costs?

zeupater

PollySouthend wrote: »

.... Germany has virtually no oil and manages pretty well.

Hi

That's down to Germans using German efficiency to manage their economy much better than we do. It pretty much comes down to policy decisions made by successive governments to not compete with SE Asian manufacturing in the belief (flawed of course) that the UK economy can be sustained by growing the service sector ... the problem is that someone, somewhere decided that the state was part of the service sector !!

It really all falls apart when you consider that even a country has to pay it's way ... when you import goods you need to offer something in return, but looking at what's happened for the past half-century it seems that this was conveniently brushed aside by almost everyone in power. Before North Sea oil & gas production was seriously ramped-up, a major indicator of the UK economy was the 'balance of trade', but when we became a producer the indicator effectively became redundant ... it's a little like household budgeting - why worry about the bank-balance when everyone's offering credit? ... that's what we've done, spent irresponsibly based on selling the family silver and borrowing against both oil revenues and asset value appreciation ....

Who needs an industrial base ?, not us, we've got oil, gas, banks, shops and the public sector to pay our way .... seen the flaw(s) yet ? - effectively, the oil, gas & banks were major contributors to the cost of the public sector & capital build programmes ... money was cheap & plentiful, considerable public sector costs were taken 'off budget', so the public sector was grown, effectively disguising the real state of the economy, for year, after year, after year .... then at the same time that the gas & oil start to run out, the banks hit the wall, mainly due to overvaluing assets ...

No matter how any political party tells it, it's successive government policies based on the above which drove the economy off it's wheels, so now to your point referenced above .... "Germany has virtually no oil and manages pretty well" ... could this be because having no oil meant that they relied on maintaining their industrial base through driving product quality & efficiencies through management right down to 'the shop floor' ... in exactly the same situation as the UK, they chose to compete, not capitulate .... that's why they're 'managing pretty well'

There you go, an emotive post based on over-simplification, but it's pretty-much right and there's plenty of hard evidence to reference if required ....

HTH
Z

zeupater

sheffield_lad wrote: »

... compared to £95 for my gas & lecci (well insulated )

I know which I consider better value I can do without TV I can't go without fuel.

.... If you really believe that £95/month is 'well insulated', prepare to be 'well insulted' by someone who really is 'well insulated' ...

... You pay more in a quarter than we do in a year !! ...

To be fair though, we also burn the equivalent of around two of your monthly payments in the logburner ....

Anyway, that reminds me that our fixed price supply deal is up for renewal at the end of this month & I'm not staying with the current supplier as they've got nothing competitive for a low-energy user anymore ....

HTH (& not made you feel sick )
Z

thor

Gra76 wrote: »

I've clicked no, mainly because I believe that any token drop in prices will go back up soon after. We'll all get sucked in and think we're getting a good deal. They'll have a load of excuses ready to justify the price going back up again. The cartel that sells us gas won't allow their obscene profits to dip.

Just like the car insurance industry where prices are dropping now due to effective anti-fraud measures but give it a year or two and watch the premiums once again sail away into the stratosphere even if those same measures bring down fraud further. These cartels like to deceive the public into thinking that they are getting a good deal and they have plenty of vested interest apologists in their corner.

happenstance

sheffield_lad wrote: »

Well done! If only many others had your resolve.

My Sky package (with calls), works out around £60per month inc BB

2x mob contracts = £25

So £85 all in for bb & mobs

compared to £95 for my gas & lecci (well insulated )

I know which I consider better value I can do without TV I can't go without fuel.

You must live in a big place if 95 a month over the entire year is for a well insulated place.

My broadband / phone line rental works out a couple of quid a month and my phone is pay as you go - 1p mb, 2p txt and 3p a call. I could not justify spending 140 on a tv licence let alone 60 a month on sky.

Cardew

happenstance wrote: »

You must live in a big place if 95 a month over the entire year is for a well insulated place.

My broadband / phone line rental works out a couple of quid a month and my phone is pay as you go - 1p mb, 2p txt and 3p a call. I could not justify spending 140 on a tv licence let alone 60 a month on sky.

£95 a month is well below the UK average.

Many people spend £60 going out for a meal. A ticket a Premier league football match can be £50.

People have different priorities!

happenstance

Cardew wrote: »

£95 a month is well below the UK average.

Many people spend £60 going out for a meal. A ticket a Premier league football match can be £50.

People have different priorities!

I thought that 1200 a year was the UK average?

Cardew

happenstance wrote: »

I thought that 1200 a year was the UK average?

The average is apparently now £1,420 a year.

Lots of sources quote that ofgem figure.

happenstance

Cardew wrote: »

The average is apparently now £1,420 a year.

Lots of sources quote that ofgem figure.

So 95 a month is about 20 quid less than the UK average.

Of course people have different priorities, but we were comparing energy and communications costs.

PollySouthend

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

That's down to Germans using German efficiency to manage their economy much better than we do. It pretty much comes down to policy decisions made by successive governments to not compete with SE Asian manufacturing in the belief (flawed of course) that the UK economy can be sustained by growing the service sector ... the problem is that someone, somewhere decided that the state was part of the service sector !!

It really all falls apart when you consider that even a country has to pay it's way ... when you import goods you need to offer something in return, but looking at what's happened for the past half-century it seems that this was conveniently brushed aside by almost everyone in power. Before North Sea oil & gas production was seriously ramped-up, a major indicator of the UK economy was the 'balance of trade', but when we became a producer the indicator effectively became redundant ... it's a little like household budgeting - why worry about the bank-balance when everyone's offering credit? ... that's what we've done, spent irresponsibly based on selling the family silver and borrowing against both oil revenues and asset value appreciation ....

Who needs an industrial base ?, not us, we've got oil, gas, banks, shops and the public sector to pay our way .... seen the flaw(s) yet ? - effectively, the oil, gas & banks were major contributors to the cost of the public sector & capital build programmes ... money was cheap & plentiful, considerable public sector costs were taken 'off budget', so the public sector was grown, effectively disguising the real state of the economy, for year, after year, after year .... then at the same time that the gas & oil start to run out, the banks hit the wall, mainly due to overvaluing assets ...

No matter how any political party tells it, it's successive government policies based on the above which drove the economy off it's wheels, so now to your point referenced above .... "Germany has virtually no oil and manages pretty well" ... could this be because having no oil meant that they relied on maintaining their industrial base through driving product quality & efficiencies through management right down to 'the shop floor' ... in exactly the same situation as the UK, they chose to compete, not capitulate .... that's why they're 'managing pretty well'

There you go, an emotive post based on over-simplification, but it's pretty-much right and there's plenty of hard evidence to reference if required ....

HTH
Z

So to sum it up for simpletons like me, north sea oil and reliance on it is one of the causes for the lack of investment in other areas and has negatively impacted the UK economy?

Couldn't fracking produce the same result?

zeupater

PollySouthend wrote: »

So to sum it up for simpletons like me, north sea oil and reliance on it is one of the causes for the lack of investment in other areas and has negatively impacted the UK economy?

Couldn't fracking produce the same result?

Hi

To be able to understand the point and sum it up in such a salient way, you should in no way consider yourself a 'simpleton' ...

Regarding 'fracking' ... if the current intent to rebalance the UK economy is to be anything other than a 'wish', we need to actively encourage the rebuilding of our industrial base. This needs to be through the manufacturing of items which we both need ourselves and others will buy from us, not simply concentrating on the construction industry, which relies of massive 'public purse' expenditure ...

Reindustrialisation of the USA is happening now and a significant proportion of this is linked to the cost and availability of the gas energy source derived from 'fracking'. Manufacturing, along with the associated employment opportunities, had been 'offshored' for years, now it seems to be moving back .... there's no reason to believe that the same couldn't happen here.

Once a manufacturing base has been re-established the country will be able to pay it's way again, without oil/gas revenues. Tapping into the benefits available from accessing the gas would likely reduce the timescales for the development & delivery of other renewables resources by making them more affordable to the country as the balance of trade benefits from reduced fuel imports & increased manufactured goods exports ... maybe we would be able to afford to build the Severn Barrage after-all.

A really important advantage of developing distributed gas resource which is missed by many, probably including Ofgem, is that there would be the possibility of developing a distributed electricity generation network, which could not only be used to break the near-monopoly stranglehold of the 'big 6', but also be designed for future consumption of bio-gasses and supply district level piped heating ....

I'd rather that the proceeds of past oil revenues weren't squandered, but there's nothing that we can do about the past, except learn from it .... so, let's not make the same mistakes and build something which can actually improve our chances of reaching a highly biased renewables energy future, all it will take is a lot of effort to keep our politicians from 'reverting to type' ....


<Rose-tinted specs off> :cool:
HTH
Z