A tiny triumph

Wellyboots6

Sounds like leaning over him is a bit of a trigger for him then. He maybe isn't startled, but has a bad association with it.
LS HATES being restrained in any way, so if I grab his collar, even with a lot of warning, building up to it gradually etc he can be unhappy about it. I don't know what has happened to cause it but it does seem to be one of his issues.
He might not be making a audiable warning, but the baring of teeth without actually attacking is a definite sign he isn't happy. From what you have said it sounds like his warnings are mainly visual cues rather than making sounds. He may have at some point been in trouble for growling and so now doesn't do it.
LS makes a lot of noise, but doesn't tend to growl to warn. He sort of lowers his head to the side and turns his nose towards you. Hard to explain, but I have learnt to recognise that as his 'not happy stance'.
I do wish dogs could talk sometimes, but then quite often am very glad I cannot understand what he is saying!

neveranymoney

I was leaning over him a bit the first time, but was definitely leaning more into him this morning, something that doesn't bother him at all usually. I have definitely noticed he has settled in more recently and become a bit cheekier but I am seriously conflicted. I'm much more on my guard now so thy is obviously having an effect on him but he gearing himself up for something. The dog out back hasn't been let out of its run for its weekly wander Around the garden and scamper is used to the noises it makes when he can't see it, barking, growling, clanging and has learnt to ignore all this but because of this mornings events plus the wind, the slightest noise had him down at the fence in full alert mode.

I too wish he could speak for just five minutes. I could scream. My poor son was standing in the hall watching this all happen AGAIN. Thank god my daughter is old enough to know what's what and has wisely taken herself off to her room to do an essay. Last night the dog and her were out playing for about 20 minutes and it was so lovely to watch. Every time I settle myself and feel good about the little frigpot, he does a nutty thing.

There is no way he is ill, he has spent over an hour devouring a bone with gusto and my sons treat of two buttered rich tea slid off his plate as he was putting stuff in the bin. Now scampers is so nervous that he wouldn't have dared touch them before AND if he is off colour or over threshold in anyway, anything dry gets ignored or in the case of kibble, spat out. He was away on them like billio. My poor son burst into tears at him dropping them, I said it was a wee accident and he could have some more but it doesn't take a genius to see the big crying session was over this mornings antics. Oh, when will the grown ups arrive and sort it all out?!!

krlyr

Great that the behaviourist is ringing, hopefully he can put your mind at ease.

However, focus on the positives. Yes, there are positives to the situation.

Firstly, you've identified a potential contributing factor, your OH going to work. Yes, he may have to do this frequently, but that doesn't mean it won't affect Scampers. It may not be what you want, but it may be a factor and something you need to work on over time. Better than the behaviour being completely out of the blue!

You leant in. That's the second time that leaning over or towards the dog has elicited this reactin. Again, not what you want to happen, but another factor to bear in mind, try to manage, and deal with in the future.

You also know that the wind worries him, so there's another factor. I think I gave you links before to trigger stacking? All these things on there own may not be an issue - you say he's normally fine with being leaned in to, for example, but in combination with your OH going to work, the wind, etc. it all adds up.

He bared his teeth. He didn't bite! As scary and unwanted as growling, teeth baring, etc. is, it's all doggy body language. You have a cold, or a toothache, or you've just had a miserable day, your OH gets home and does something that you'd normally shrug off - well, you may have a bit of a grump. It's a natural form of communication, and what Scampers did was a doggy way to communicate. It's a warning sign, an "I'm uncomfortable here, please back off". It was not a bite - hooray!

In this situation, telling him off was not ideal, but what's done is done. Really, you don't want to punish a dog for displaying this body language - nor do you want to discourage the restraint he showed by not just biting. That's not to say you have to accept his behaviour, but you have to somewhat consider that you may have contributed to it by leaning in. Ideally, you would back away to remove some of the stress from the situation, and then call him down/away. Not as a punishment, but to diffuse the situation and ensure he's not remaining stressed and then reinforcing the behaviour by growling or baring his teeth again.

You've made a lot of progress - which is fantastic, but also bear in mind the effect this may have had on Scampers. Think of having a busy period at work, or studying for an exam at college. It's something that will better your skills, but it is still stressful to be in that situation. Scampers has probably been under a level of stress whilst all this learning has gone on - not saying you should stop what you're doing, but just bear in mind the effect it can have on his behaviour elsewhere and make sure he gets plenty of down-time to relax, and isn't put in stressful situations (so let him come to you for fuss rather than risk leaning in to fuss him, especially as this has been a trigger point twice now).

Like I say, hopefully the chat with the behaviourist will help. Don't beat yourself up or blame Scampers, life with a reactive dog can be tough and you'll have setbacks, it's making sure you pick yourself up, have a little cry or scream or punch a few pillows to de-stress, and get back on the horse!

I wouldn't rule out illness or pain without a vet trip though. Mine have fantastic appetites but their behaviour has given away health issues in the past. E.g. Kiki on several occasions has become a lot less playful with Casper at home, and on each occasion it's had a medical cause - once at the diagnosis of her hypothyroidism, again once her thyroid levels dropped and her medication needed adjusting, and again recently when x-rays showed tendonitis in her shoulder. Each time the behaviour has improved and gone back to usual once the medical condition was treated. So could be well worth a vet trip for a thorough exam. With a new dog, especially a rescue, you don't quite know what behaviour is the "base level" for him, so it may take some time for you to realise what's normal for him and what's not, but with an incident like this I would certainly want to rule out a health issue.

Wellyboots6

I agree with the trigger stacking idea.
I definitely see that happen with LS. If he encounters a problem on his walk or at training class he can be jumpy for the rest of the evening. If the following morning he has another problem on his walk he can be a pig for the next day or so. It can take a couple of days of calm before he settles back to the start again.
I also recognise trigger stacking for him, in increasing my stress too! If he has reacted to something, I am then more on edge, which adds another level to his stress I think. It's something I am really trying to work on as I am aware of the impact it has on him.
Could Scampers be picking up on your stress? As you are now on edge after todays incident, be aware that itself could be adding a notch on his stress meter and may take him a while longer to settle again

neveranymoney

Thank you so much for that, it's what I needed. I don't know whether I said previously but I pulled back when he bared his teeth, so i genuinely don't know would we have connected and I didn't shout, although it was sharp, coming from me. I was still a good 2 feet away from him however, he wasn't right by my side and I had called him up to me when he had been in the hall. He is the type of dog that won't come for a fuss is he doesn't want to.

I see completely what you mean about the training but it is literally 5 minutes here and there throughout the day, sometimes 3 times, sometimes once and the Mat bit is the only new thing as he basically knew nowt and I don't want to set him up to fall.

I feel so mad, at what I don't actually know. I swear, he couldn't have a better life, he would probably benefit from more advanced owners would be the only thing but he is loved, treated - I make flipping liver training treats for him, I don't even go to that amount of effort for the humans in this house!

Life with scampers is very much like having children, 90% hell and 10% pure joy. If I take a step away and look at it from an outsiders point of view - I have a dog that is deeply dog aggressive, nervous and may be possibly showing signs of human aggression. He is very much a part of the family but half the time we don't tell people what it's like living with him as on the occasions I have people say 'you are mad, get rid.' As I said earlier, my mother is coming later, she hasn't been in ages, she knows nothing about scampers dog bite, the fact the blinds have to pulled to prevent melt down, the continual telling the kids to knock off any racket as 'that's upsetting the dog' .

I can't imagine the house without him and the thought that he will be 'better' some day is what keeps me going with him but here we have another Saturday, the only day I get to spend solely with the kids as Sundays we go to my mother in laws and get housey stuff done, spent policing a dog. I read something online before and someone referred to their rescue dog as a 'good deed gone wrong' and that sums up how I feel today, I must admit.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't expect not to have to put in the time and patience but his unpredictability is a big concern.

neveranymoney

It's a definite yes to the trigger stacking with scampers, I have become very well versed in reading him and know he will be 'funny' is his walk has been traumatic etc. he is most probably getting stress signals off me now but this morning - nada!

Wellyboots6

Could you take the kids out somewhere now for a bit? Go for a hot chocolate or something?
Get away from the situation and leave Scampers to calm for a little while. Not as a punishment for him, but to give you and the kids some space to relax and enjoy yourselves a bit.
Come home and see it as a fresh start to the afternoon.
I have times where it feels like LS is taking over my life, it can be so intense. I have learnt that sometimes I need to take a step back, for both our sakes.
He gets sick of me going on as much as I get sick of him chewing up my toilet rolls! We need space from each other occasionally

krlyr

Bear in mind that with stress, it doesn't all come from clearly negative situations either. I noticed a huge improvement with Kiki's stressful/anxious behaviour (before the diagnosis of her thyroid issues) when we stopped playing fetch games on walks. Yes, it was something she loved - but it also raises the adrenaline in a dog, which remains in the body for a while, and then contributed to her stress reaction later on that morning.

I can't remember if you went down the route of blood tests etc? May be worthwhile, especially as you refer to noise sensitivity and so on, even with a reactive dog I think it's a bit unusual to be stressed out by so many things and it would definately be worth ruling out a medical condition contributing to the behaviour. It doesn't have to be one or the other - some of Kiki's was just behavioural stuff, that was improved by training etc. or that lingered after medication, but a lot definately related to her thyroid condition as it improved so much on treatment, and then returned when she needed her meds adjusting.

neveranymoney

I don't know what to type, please don't judge me harshly.

Just off the phone with the behaviourist, after explaining the whole thing to him his reply, whilst many may not agree is the only thing making sense to me.

He said was I smiling as I leaned in, what exactly happened and when I told him, he said a dog had actually bitten him on the face years ago in very similar situations and that it had been his fault but that in this circumstance, scampers has displayed that he cannot read a situation very well, he is not showing aggression but signs of aggressive behaviour and the fact that it was me, his main care giver who hand feeds him is not good.

The fact that I am able to read signals possibly stopped anything happening, but a child could not. If I didn't have a 7 year old child in the house he thinks we could work through it. He said my son has the right to be a kid, he is annoyed with the rescue (on further investigation. It is really an off shoot of the council, who's hearts are in the right place but should not be letting people with children take home dogs that have not been assessed for suitability) as we are 'the perfect dog owners' have done all that has been asked by him and we are never going to know what happened in scampers missing years, maybe something I did was something that happened prior to a punishment in his last home and in his capacity as a professional dog behaviourist his ADVICE is to contact the place I got him from and return him. I could not take the risk of something happening somewhere down the line knowing all that is known about him. He said I'm not a failure, scampers would probably be better suited to an older couple.

I am in bits. My husband is at work, I haven't said anything to the kids.

joansgirl

I don't know what to say. This has to be you and your families decision. I for one won't judge you harshly. I think you've shown immense courage and determination to come this far and have done more for him and tolerated more bad behaviour than a lot of other people would have done. I know you don't want to give up on him but at some point you have to draw a line. He seems to have taken over your whole life and at times it must be hard to see the wood for the trees.

You've also got kids to consider, one of whom is already stressed about it all. You need to do what is best for everybody concerned.

You and your husband need to discuss this and make a decision, sooner rather than later.

I really feel for you and am so sad for you. I'd just love to get my hands on whoever caused this. Hanging's too good for them:mad: