Has Anyone Regularised an Undocumented Loft Conversion?

Odie_Schmodie

I wrote a post here a little while ago but got no responses... Looking to buy a house that I love in many ways but there is a number of internal works that have no certification and are quite clearly not according to building reg - a loft conversion (which has implications for roof structure + overall stability of the building, though this has been used regularly for the past 20 years and I will only be using it as a storage room + occasional hobby room) and a chimney breast removal that my HomeBuyers Report highlighted as insufficiently supported. There is also a removed internal wall that my survey didn't say anything about (again it has been up for 20+ years). Vendors are not willing to negotiate on price (we'd agreed on 5% less than original asking price). It would cost me 300-500 pounds to get a structural engineer in so I am trying to think about the "worst case scenario" for the cost of regularisation of all this stuff. There are LOTS of threads here about similar situations but then they all end without us finding out if the buyer went ahead! Any feedback so very very welcome, pleeeeaaaaaaaaseeeeeee!

ognum

As no one else has replied I will!

Firstly it is very dangerous to love a house before you buy it, it blinkers you to all the issues.

Maybe this house seems better than other houses you have looked at because of the price. The reason it is this price probably is because the vendor is aware of all these issues.

It is almost impossible to regularise a loft conversion without doing the whole thing again. You need steel support girders put into the floor and the roof structure needs correctly supporting, you also need wired smoke alarms etc. Consider the cost of a loft conversion and that is about what you will have to spend.

Removing walls is another issue and I would not buy without the advice of a structural engineer, he needs to find out what is supporting the upper floors, this may mean removing plaster from the supporting joist area and this might be something your sellers would not like.

If you do not solve all these issues you will find the property hard to sell. I am afraid I am going to say what you don't want to hear and that is add up all these costs probably comes to 50k, add onto the cost of the house and you will understand it is not a good property.

T_W

We were in a similar position to yourself, so hired a chartered structural engineer to visit the seller's house. We felt it was money (£250) very well spent because it basically answered all of our questions and gave us all the information we needed.

Unlike the homebuyers report, which just follows a standard template, the engineer's report was very specifically tailored to our needs, so I'd highly recommend that as your next course of action. Just make sure it's a chartered structural engineer, not a building surveyor or "loft conversion specialist".

We asked about regularisation, and in his opinion it would take around 16 weeks (varies depending where you live) and around £1000. This was for a rather non standard garage conversion. Obviously as Ognum has mentioned, a loft conversion is a more "serious" change, and building regs for lofts have been updated quite a bit in the last 20 years, so I'd expect your cost to be higher, but the structural engineer will give you a much more acurate figure.

To respond to your final sentence, we are proceeding with the purchase. Since in our case the work is something we had planned to change once we move in anyway, we decided rather than get regularisation, we'll get the remodeling work done, and make sure we get the new work certificated.

So don't lose hope just yet!

sooz

ognum wrote: »

It is almost impossible to regularise a loft conversion without doing the whole thing again. You need steel support girders put into the floor and the roof structure needs correctly supporting, you also need wired smoke alarms etc. Consider the cost of a loft conversion and that is about what you will have to spend

In my case I knew I would do a full proper conversion anyway.

Everything had to be ripped out, so it was no cheaper that several secondhand velux window,, or a wonky stud partition & dodgy stairs had already been installed. All it meant was every quite was a little bit higher than normal, as they'd have so much rubbish work to rip out & skip first.

Everything was ripped out & then they started again with novel things like RSJs instead ceiling joists and an extra bit of wood screwed on

Until all the 'work' of a bad loft conversion is removed, you have no idea how bad it really is.

Richard_Webster

Two issues for anyone in this kind of position:

1. Is it safe, well built, unlikely to have structural failure?

2. Am I going to have hassle selling it because buyer s and their lenders worry about lack of paperwork?

First can be dealt with by using common sense and employing a surveyor to look at the structure. If the means of escape in case of fire is dodgy wouldn't you want improved? However, also remember that there are lots of older properties with aspects that would never be acceptable now - but which nobody seems to be concerned about.

Second is a matter of obtaining indemnity policies/regularisation certificates sufficient to keep the average buyer/lender happy. Lenders are unpredictable because the people who make the decisions are not legally qualified and often rely on what their surveyor says - and he doesn't want to be sued for giving bad advice to them.

However I have often found that I can write a letter to a lender which emphasizes that I cannot advise them on the point as I am not a surveyor, but as their surveyor did not raise any concerns (hopefully he didn't) and the work is [20 or however many] years old he may think that problems are unlikely to emerge. Often the surveyor tells the lender there is little ris of a strucutral problem and lender proceeds - sometimes asking us to point out to the buyer that there is a risk invoked for him in doing so.

Odie_Schmodie

Thank you each and everyone of you who has replied- I think everyone has shown more concern and interest in my case than the EA has done so far ;-) My survey was done by an independent surveyor whereas the lender only did a valuation, and approved the agreed price. However when I spoke to them on the phone yesterday they read out the report (I haven't received it yet because apparently they still need some paperwork) as you know it says very little, but it does end with a sentence saying "it is assumed that all permits have been obtained for the internal works". Today I heard back from the EA saying the sellers' solicitor has "offered indemnity insurance" (in any case isn't this something that I + my solicitor discuss with the vendor + their solicitor- is the EA supposed to be doing this negotiating??). So it appears that a-) the lack of certificates will come up EVENTUALLY with the lender, and I don't know if they will be satisfied with indemnity insurance and b-) I think Regularisation sounds like a horrendous ordeal...

Ognum you are soooo insightful when you say it is wrong to fall in love with a house before you buy it - in my case it's the location and space that is perfect, and I expected to spend for a complete redecorating but I think vendors who let their house look that shabby are also unlikely to have bothered with telling the council about their "DIY" projects.

T_W, yes, hiring a structural engineer is the way to go for sure, but a couple hundred pounds more... Since the EA called to tell me (before I even tried to negotiate the price after the survey) that the vendor wasn't willing to do any of the work and could I please hurry up and decide what I am doing, I am basically told there is no point in haggling. So, it looks like a dead-end for the time being.

So now I am definitely going to be looking for properties that haven't had any internal work done!

Thank you again ;-)

Mary_Hartnell

The modern regulations are are all "scientific", there are thousands of houses out there build between 1066 and the early 1970s that have none of this "anus protection" paperwork. If you have a large enough deposit, the lender should make a retention against your undertaking to put right anything that is obviously dangerous.

[For what it is worth I have a hanging chimney with no proper gallows bracket, so it relies on the weight of the other half to keep it in position on its 4" pivot - I really must do something about it soon. It was not on the list of dilapidations I had to repair 40 years ago.]

suebfg

I bought a house whereby the loft conversion had to be regularised before we bought the house. It added several weeks to the process as some additional works were required to be carried out. However, in our case, it was only the conversion of a side loft - not a new floor in the house.

suebfg

Oh and I wouldn't touch an indemnity with a bargepole!

DRP

suebfg wrote: »

Oh and I wouldn't touch an indemnity with a bargepole!

Agree. An indemnity means close to nothing.

We're still waiting (months) for a definitive answer as to whether our vendor's loft has the correct paperwork. Their conveyancer says the document from the regs office approving the plans is enough - ours (and I) disagree....

However our conveyancer says they need to agree before we can pursue the paperwork at the council office.

all very time-consuming :mad:

DRP

Sorry to barge in on the OP, but i;m looking for some info on a simalar situation:

Our seller's loft is converted (c.1991) with stairs, en-suite and a couple of velux.

No completion certificate is found when our conveyancer does electronic searches of the council office.

The vendors say they have no completion certificate in their possession.

The council say there is a grey are over whether the council were issuing them back then.

Therefore our conveyancer has insisted they request a paper document search of the council office (which the vendors have agreed to).

If this fails then they will regularise the loft.

Does anyone have any info on what is required for the loft to pass this 'regularisation survey'? or any other comments on the situation?