why do car scene guys lower their cars to just a few mms off the ground?

motorguy

I would doubt that any of the owner of those cars that are 'slammed' would say its because it improves the handling.

Its just a certain look they're going for. If you look back over modding history there are certain styles that are prevalent then it moves on.

King_Nothing

Wish dubscene would move on sooner rather than later, slammed cars, and stretched tyres are ridiculous. My car is lowered, on different dampers, stiffer anti-roll bars, polybushed and has uprated brakes, and does handle better now. Cars are built to compromises really think OEM dampers and springs are the best you can do on "normal" cars? They not.

Joe_Horner

scotsbob wrote: »

Remember also that EEC regulations demand that many cars imported into the UK are having the suspensions raised to comply with EU regulations.

Really?

As far as I'm aware there are no EU requirements for ride height specifically.

The safety requirements for vehicles in the EU are covered by the UN WP.29 standards ("E" markings), which all EU countries have been signatories to since at least the 1960s, or since they joined the EU if after that. Practically the whole world, except North America, use those standards nowadays.

North American heigh requirements for lights, bumpers etc are near enough in line with UN ones that manufacturers can meet both at the design stage

Given that those UN standards cover the majority of world car markets, I find if very doubtful that the manufacturers design for some minority market then "tweak" things for "the EU"

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be very interested indeed to know exactly what requirement is peculiar to the EU in this way?

Strider590

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Unfortunately, simply dropping the suspension like that also messes up all those carefully designed (and dynamic) suspension angles, which almost always makes the car handle worse than stock despite the lower CoG.

Seeing as most lowering fans will swear blind that they get better handling, all it really does is show just how much they're talking the talk without really knowing how to crawl the crawl, let alone walk the walk

Well.... You see, lets take my Vectra for example, they made a touring car version of it, which sits barely off the ground.

Done right, with the correct components, it's not a problem..... At the bare minimum this means purpose designed springs (shorter and harder than stock), with shortened shock absorbers and uprated anti-roll bars.
Alternatively switching to adjustable coil overs would be pretty much the requirement for a race or track day car.

A lot of the time, the boy racer crowd simply cut the existing springs down and keep the original shocks, which gives you soft lowered suspension with shocks that bottom out very easily (because at rest they are already using half their travel).

King_Nothing wrote: »

Cars are built to compromises really think OEM dampers and springs are the best you can do on "normal" cars? They not.

True that, shocks and springs are usually the first thing to get hit when pre-release cost cutting is required. They're fitted with what works for a few years, they're wear and tear parts, so it doesn't really matter to them.

They spend millions on suspension design and the arguments against modifications are valid, BUT done correctly (as above), it can be an improvement AND the parts will outlast the car.

motorguy

Strider590 wrote: »

A lot of the time, the boy racer crowd simply cut the existing springs down and keep the original shocks, which gives you soft lowered suspension with shocks that bottom out very easily (because at rest they are already using half their travel).

Coilover kits are now avail from £200 so anyone in 'the scene' will have that as a minimum. A spring kit is from about £120 so again theres not big money involved.

Yes there are prob still some who cut the springs but it does make for a terrible ride.

forgotmyname

Lowering only works upto a point. When lowering stiffer springs are required to stop tyre/bodywork contact when hitting bumps or lowering.

But it gets to a point where its so low and the springs are so stiff they suspension doesnt move anymore. When that happens the roadholding is much worse.

They do it because they think it looks good. Like drivers that have the seat virtually horizontal and barely able to reach the wheel or see where they are going.

I see an old VW Golf pickup sometimes. With the wheels so wide they stick out like the carlos fandango wheels from the old Hamlet advert.
With tyres that are not wide enough they stretch them to fit.
Another danger item.

How it could pass an MOT like that i never know.

Strider590

forgotmyname wrote: »

Like drivers that have the seat virtually horizontal and barely able to reach the wheel or see where they are going.

Well.... The correct position is such that the back of your knees are touching the seat when the clutch pedal is fully depressed and the seat back is then adjusted so that your wrist can rest on top of the steering wheel.
A lot of people say I have very laid back seat position, but then I see an awful lot of drivers who sit far too close to the wheel.... So I have to wonder if driving with elbows touching the wheel is becoming "normal" for UK drivers. It's certainly extremely common with young women.

Joe_Horner

Strider590 wrote: »

Well.... You see, lets take my Vectra for example, they made a touring car version of it, which sits barely off the ground.

Done right, with the correct components, it's not a problem..... At the bare minimum this means purpose designed springs (shorter and harder than stock), with shortened shock absorbers and uprated anti-roll bars.
Alternatively switching to adjustable coil overs would be pretty much the requirement for a race or track day car.

The problem is, it's still not that simple.

Camber and toe angles change as the suspension moves from full extension to full compression - more on some suspension designs than others, but there is always a change.

Most systems are designed to increase negative camber as the wheel moves "towards" the car so that the (heavier loaded) inner wheel on corners keep as much tread as possible in contact with the road. Lowering the suspension has exactly the same effect as loading it, so the designed camber changes. Toe angle will also change because of the changed relationship between the suspension and steering components.

That will affect everything from straight-line grip, to steering weight, cornering and tyre wear and, without fully analysing the new setup (which scene guys don't do) there's no way of knowing what those effects will be except to say they'll be for the worse.

So you need to add a full alignment (including camber correction) to your "minimum" list and, quite possibly, different length wishbones if the available camber adjustment isn't enough to correct matters.

The impression of "better handling" because it feels "firmer" and stays flatter in corners (before it breaks away unpredictably and quite likely at a lower speed than stock) is purely psychological in most cases.

Weird_Nev

Because they have no idea about handling and vehicle dynamics, and they think that if a car can move under it's own power, it's "safe".

Lowering is NOT the same thing as "slamming". I've lowered 3 of my cars, a small amount. If you start of thinking: "I want better handling, how can I achieve that?" And the answer involves some component of lowering, you're probably ok.

If you start off thinking "I want my car to look SIK!" and that involves cutting 100mm out of your springs, you're probably on the route to ruining your car.

Suspension work costs money. I've good evidence that those who slam their cars seek to do it as cheaply as possible, and that leads to dangerous cars. Put it this way: I wouldn't trust £200 ebay no-name coilovers, and if you delve into the forums of these scenes they're full of terrible advice and owners egging each other to drop the car lower. Purely for looks. Handling doesn't come into it. For the most part, they end up unusable as cars.

alastairq

I've tended to go entirely the other way....due to my liking for Classic Reliability Trials...where ground clearance is king! [and compromises in 'handling' are accepted and coped with]

However, all this [correct and useful] talk of lowering for improved handling ignores some outstanding examples of superior handling at normal [legal] speeds....e.g., the Citroen 2CV?

A well-driven example of which is difficult even for modern cars, to keep up with on twisty roads.

With its skinny tyres, and incredibly long-travel supple suspension [including a degree of self-levelling]...

But, of course a proper 2CV [not dolled-up fashion statement] is hardly cool on the street?