Parking LBCCC - merits of making a 'without prejudice offer'

zzzLazyDaisy

LOL.... how's that for service! :T

ordinaryJoe

OK. So now the POPLA clock has been reset and we start all over again. PE have now issued a new PCN to the driver of the vehicle. The facts of the case are that according to the ANPR, the vehicle was in the car park for 3 hours and 22 minutes.

The PCN does not state what the specific breach of the terms and conditions was, which seems strange - surely their ticketing log should enable them to tell me that I purchased a ticket, and indeed what time that ticket was issued?

Unfortunately, I no longer have the ticket, but I can say that it was a three hour ticket, and there were several minutes between the time I entered the car park and the time that I bought the ticket. I can also confirm that I returned to the car park within the time stated on the ticket. So it seems that PE are charging me £60 or £100 for 22 minutes "overstay", an indeterminate amount of which was before I bought the ticket, and the rest of which was only a short time after the departure time printed on the ticket.

Do I have a strong case for an appeal? My main concern is that 22 minutes is more than the 20 minutes "period of grace", although I should add that I have not found any definite proof that the terms and conditions actually include a 20 minute grace period. I think it is highly likely that the start time on my ticket was between 5 and 10 minutes after the ANPR arrival time.

So this is where the original title of this thread started from. It appears I have 3 options - either pay the full amount that PE are demanding, or appeal against all of it, or offer a "compromise" payment to cover an overstay of less than 22 minutes - which is what I understood by a "without prejudice offer".

I only want to appeal this case if the experts on this forum believe that there is a high probability of winning it. If not, I am interested in your thoughts on attempting a compromise payment, as I am in no doubt that £60 or £100 is completely unreasonable as a "charge" for a brief overstay.

Thanks in anticipation for your comments and advice.

Regards

Joe

zzzLazyDaisy

There is 100% chance of winning at POPLA. Is that good enough odds?

Go to the first thread n the parking forum - POPLA Decisions. Look for decisions that are based on 'genuine pre-estimate of loss' and 'no contract', prepare a draft appeal based around those grounds, and challenge them on signage, and then post your draft for comments by the regular posters. DO NOT attempt to go it alone, the regulars here win every time, so take advantage of their expertise.

D

Coupon-mad

Seconded, we have 100% success rate in all cases we have helped with any POPLA appeal against any PPC, since Easter. That is hundreds of cases, if not more. Read the POPLA decisions thread at the top of the forum, as Daisy says, but read it from the end backwards to see all the recent thrashings of Parking Eye. It should be the same for you as long as you take stock and get advice once you have the precious POPLA code.

Do not miss any appeal deadline as PE read this forum and will no doubt be looking to trip you up. Here's what to do and when:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=83749&st=0&gopid=874216

So the driver doesn't yet have a POPLA code but has a Notice to Driver, yes? Make sure the first challenge as driver has some solid appeal points (i.e. not just a letter refusing to pay and begging a POPLA code). So the driver needs to talk about the lack of signs, lack of fair grace period and the unreliability of the ANPR cameras perhaps, mention that you were a genuine customer if it was a retail car park and the driver was shopping, enclose a copy receipt if that is the case. No loss caused because the driver did pay and display. That sort of thing, doesn't matter too much as long as it's a true appeal.

Then at POPLA stage read POPLA appeal examples again and ensure it's likely to win.

ordinaryJoe

As suggested by Daisy and Coupon-mad, here is the first draft of my letter to PE after receiving the PCN earlier this week. Just to be clear, this is not a POPLA appeal letter, it is the initial appeal to PE.

All constructive comments and feedback greatly appreciated, thanks.

Joe

Appeal Against Parking Charge Notice - Ref {removed}


Dear Sir/Madam,

Vehicle Registration Number {removed}

I refer to your Parking Charge Notice (PCN) {removed} dated {removed}.

I am appealing against this charge and strongly request that you cancel it forthwith, on the following grounds:

Firstly, that the data recorded by your equipment and used in your PCN does not tally with the data printed on the tickets issued by your machine on the site. If you use the ANPR data to determine whether or not the terms and conditions of the site have been breached, then you are deliberately misleading the public by supplying them with different timing data that is based on the time that the ticket is purchased rather than the time that the vehicle was photographed at the entrance to the car park. Depending on a variety of factors, the difference between these times could range between a few seconds and many minutes. Your ANPR data makes no allowances for weather conditions, number of vehicles arriving / departing, incidents that cause delays, and queueing for the ticket machine. I purchased a 3 hour ticket for £4.80. Unfortunately I no longer have that ticket, so I cannot compare the time that was printed on it with the times on your PCN. I must state in the strongest possible terms that the reason I no longer have that ticket is that I believed that it had been purchased in good faith for the correct amount of time, it had served its purpose and it was no longer needed. In other words, I returned to the vehicle on or about the time that was printed on the ticket, and I had no reason to retain the ticket as I was not aware that any terms and conditions may have been broken. I had no way of knowing that you were going to apply your terms and conditions using times that were not available to me. I think I have reasonable grounds here to make a case that your terms and conditions are invalidated by incorrect use of the data from your monitoring equipment.

Secondly, even if I were to ignore the unreliable timing that invalidates your terms and conditions, I believe that there are also precedents for allowing a reasonable period of grace for a departure time later than that printed on the ticket, to allow for delays caused by unforeseen events and factors outside the driver's control, such as those already mentioned above. Neither your PCN nor, from my distant recollection, your signage, make any mention of a grace period.

Furthermore the PCN does not even confirm that a parking ticket was purchased, which I find extremely odd, since I would expect your machines to record ticket purchases against the vehicle registration numbers at the time of purchase.

Finally, although I recall that your signage indicates a charge of £100 for "failure to comply", I do not understand how you can justify such a charge for, depending on your point of view, an overstay of something between 0 minutes and {removed} minutes where the driver has legitimately bought a 3 hour ticket. Assuming that "failure to comply" infers a breach of the terms and conditions, it is my understanding that any charge made must, by law, be derived as a pre-estimate of loss. Any loss that you incur as a result of an overstay should surely be in some way proportional to the duration of the overstay. A fixed charge of £100 for failure to comply cannot therefore be a reasonable pre-estimate of loss.

In the unlikely event that you reject this appeal, I will need a POPLA code from you in order to continue my appeal at the next level.

Yours faithfully

Coupon-mad

As they already know you were the driver that looks fine. I really wouldn't be surprised if they now throw in the towel rather than fund a POPLA appeal. You've done brilliantly to get it to this stage and the end is certainly in sight now, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet!

ordinaryJoe

Interim update: I posted the above letter on 10/10, and today (17/10) I received in the post a PCN Reminder stating that I have until 17 October (today) to pay or the amount will increase. The date on the reminder is 12/10. Should I be worried that PE are ignoring my appeal letter, or maybe the reminder was automatically sent even though the legal department were already looking at my appeal? If I don't hear anything in the next week, should I re-send the appeal letter?

Thanks once again to everyone who's helped so far

Joe

Umkomaas

ordinaryJoe wrote: »

Interim update: I posted the above letter on 10/10, and today (17/10) I received in the post a PCN Reminder stating that I have until 17 October (today) to pay or the amount will increase. The date on the reminder is 12/10. Should I be worried that PE are ignoring my appeal letter, or maybe the reminder was automatically sent even though the legal department were already looking at my appeal? If I don't hear anything in the next week, should I re-send the appeal letter?

Thanks once again to everyone who's helped so far

Joe

All automated stuff, although when an appeal is in progress all recovery action should be suspended (as per the BPA CoP). It's almost certain that the date of their reminder is correct (as everything is automated, I doubt there's any messing about with dates) and they've had a delay in either getting it into the post, or a delay in its delivery.

Also as the dates are so close together, your letter of 10/10 probably means they didn't get it until 12/10 (Saturday) by which time the reminder (also dated 12/10) will have already started its journey through their system. Your letter won't have even been opened by the time the reminder was printed. Don't forget they are dealing with hundreds of transactions every day.

Also, don't forget they have 35 days to respond to an appeal, and while you may be anxious to get a response, they will be working to their timetable, not yours.

So meantime dig in for the long haul on this one, but spend some time researching POPLA appeals and winning points, then you will be primed and ready for action in the event of a rejection by PE.

ordinaryJoe

PE have rejected my appeal, and have sent a POPLA appeal form with a verification code.

Strangely, they have addressed their correspondence to the RK rather than the driver, even though they were formally notified of the driver's name and address in earlier correspondence. Is that something I need to do something about, or should I just get on and use the POPLA code to make an appeal?

I am (unsurprisingly) unhappy with the reason PE have given for rejecting my appeal, which is exactly as follows:

We are writing to advise you that your recent appeal has been unsuccessful due to the fact that the car park is a 'Pay & Display / Paid Parking' car park only. Our records show that you did not purchase a valid Parking ticket or the appropriate parking time on the date of the parking event.

It is still not clear to me whether this means that they think a ticket was not purchased (it was!) or whether they think there was not enough time on the ticket to cover the time the vehicle was parked (there was!).

I will post a sanitised draft version of the POPLA appeal as soon as I can, but in the meantime, if anyone can give me some key points to use, I will be very grateful.

Thanks again
Joe

bod1467

It just means they received your appeal, saw the points about payment/time and then rejected your appeal without reading it, and generated a template response.