MPs debate WCA decisions, 6 September c.2pm

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Adjournment Debate: Reconsideration of Work Capability Assessment decisions
Due to take place at 2pm on Friday 6 September*

Transcripts of proceedings in the House of Commons Chamber are available three hours after they happen in http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/

* following the conclusion of debates on Private Members Bills. It may begin later if any Urgent Questions or Statements are granted on the day, as Parliamentary business is subject to change.

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Sheila Gilmore is the proposing MP for the debate on WCA decisions.
Exclusively for MSE forum members Sheila explains below why this topic is of particular importance to her:

It’s widely accepted that a lot of people who apply for Employment and Support Allowance are (ESA) incorrectly declared Fit for Work. Many appeal, and Tribunal Judges regularly overturn previous decisions and award people benefits. While there is much the Government could do to prevent people from being incorrectly assessed in the first place, the issue I want to raise in parliament today is the financial support given to people during the appeals process.

When people first put in their application they are paid ESA at the assessment rate, which is equivalent to Jobseekers Allowance. At present those who are declared Fit for Work but appeal can continue to receive this.

This is set to change. In future all appeals will go through ‘reconsideration’ – where a Government official will look at the decision again, awarding benefit if they decide the decision was incorrect, or passing on to independent Tribunal Judges if they remain unconvinced. During reconsideration – in effect an ‘informal appeal’ – claimants will no longer be entitled to ESA at the assessment rate.

Instead their only option will be to apply for Jobseekers Allowance (JSA). But this requires claimants to be available for work, which given that many will eventually be recognised as unable to do so by a Judge, will be difficult. These people could end up being too fit for ESA, but to sick or disabled for JSA, and this is the contradiction I’ll be raising with Government Ministers today.

If you were in Sheila’s shoes and you were able to put your views forward to the government ministers, what would you say? What questions would you ask them?

Richie-from-the-Boro

Social marketing exercises which intend to shape attitudes and behaviour seems to be an extension of the No 10 [behavioural insights team] 'nudge' unit. You claim the prestigious House of Commons address yet you are but one more IT group funded by interested parties who clearly work directly for the current government. The intention of the 'nudge' unit is unapologetically to use subtle control techniques to make us behave in a way the Government would want us to.

Like ATOS before you, I am shocked that MSE in general and if he is to be believed Martin Lewis in the particular [in editorial terms], gives you access to their client base to provide free research analysis to 'shape' how we the UK population view, and might respond to unpopular regulations.

loobyloose

I didn't realise a representative of this government was on these boards probably to rub in further the hate and resentment towards those less fortunate than there silver spoon mouthed selfs.

Why has martin and co allowed this.. Thank god most here know

rogerblack

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Like ATOS before you, I am shocked that MSE in general and if he is to be believed Martin Lewis in the particular [in editorial terms], gives you access to their client base to provide free research analysis to 'shape' how we the UK population view, and might respond to unpopular regulations.

I entirely disagree with this - it is useful for them to highlight relevant debates.
I watched the entire debate - I find it depressing there were I think 2 other MPs other than the representative of the DWP and the MP asking for the debate.
Very little was revealed of substance, with the government saying basically that mandatory reconsideration will work just fine, and everyone will be well trained to avoid the potential hurdles, and glossing over the hard requirements of JSA that seem to make it illegal for the government to allow people who cannot actively seek employment for 50/52 weeks of the year aiming at at least 16 hours of work to claim JSA.

tomtom256

loobyloose wrote: »

I didn't realise a representative of this government was on these boards probably to rub in further the hate and resentment towards those less fortunate than there silver spoon mouthed selfs.

Why has martin and co allowed this.. Thank god most here know

Oh right, are these boards not open to all then!

Not like you need to join to read the topics, gosh the government must be missing a right trick, by not snooping on users of the forum.

schrodie

loobyloose wrote: »

I didn't realise a representative of this government was on these boards probably to rub in further the hate and resentment towards those less fortunate than there silver spoon mouthed selfs.

Why has martin and co allowed this.. Thank god most here know

MSE had to allow a representative from Atos to come onto these boards to try to portray the more humane side of Atos (if that's possible). However for some reason the Atos rep has now gone to ground presumably with its tail between its legs due to the drubbing it got and rightly so.

Richie-from-the-Boro

rogerblack wrote: »

I entirely disagree with this - it is useful for them to highlight relevant debates.
I watched the entire debate - I find it depressing there were I think 2 other MPs other than the representative of the DWP and the MP asking for the debate.
Very little was revealed of substance, with the government saying basically that mandatory reconsideration will work just fine, and everyone will be well trained to avoid the potential hurdles, and glossing over the hard requirements of JSA that seem to make it illegal for the government to allow people who cannot actively seek employment for 50/52 weeks of the year aiming at at least 16 hours of work to claim JSA.

HiYa Roger,

I did not read any of the links provided by DOT, nor was it my intention to reply to specific [trees] topics raised by the DOT. It was [woods] the (1) very presence of DOT on these boards and the (2) purpose of DOT in being here that I find abhorrent.

- woods & trees, you highlight JSA, JSA example below
- I've mentioned the nudge unit for months here on MSE

Jobseekers are being made forced to complete bogus psychometric tests by the DWP by being told [an official DWP letter] they risk losing their benefits if they do not complete a purportless online questionnaire. The test is called My Strengths, devised by Downing Street's behavioural insights team or "nudge" unit, it has already been exposed by bloggers as a sham with results having no relation to the answers given, the real purpose of the pseudo test is to 'condition' a JSA applicant into getting off the dole within 13 weeks. If you open the test in 10 different browser windows and complete the test 10 different ways the answer URL="http://blog.gemmapeter.co.uk/2013/04/23/dwp-personal-strengths-test/"]by design or really bad coding[/URL is always the same.

So you see Roger I'm not remotely interested in seeing what they post, going to .. .. and reading what they tell me to read, or unmindfully doing what they tell me to do. Its the appropriateness of a unit involved in psychologically nudging people into DWP / GOV compliance being allowed the oxygen of posting on these boards, and using peoples responses for a pathway we have yet to find out.

Take care Roger.

ani_26

Quote:
Originally Posted by House of Commons Rep (DOT)
Sheila Gilmore is the proposing MP for the debate on WCA decisions.
Exclusively for MSE forum members Sheila explains below why this topic is of particular importance to her:




Quote:
It’s widely accepted that a lot of people who apply for Employment and Support Allowance are (ESA) incorrectly declared Fit for Work. Many appeal, and Tribunal Judges regularly overturn previous decisions and award people benefits. While there is much the Government could do to prevent people from being incorrectly assessed in the first place, the issue I want to raise in parliament today is the financial support given to people during the appeals process.

When people first put in their application they are paid ESA at the assessment rate, which is equivalent to Jobseekers Allowance. At present those who are declared Fit for Work but appeal can continue to receive this.

This is set to change. In future all appeals will go through ‘reconsideration’ – where a Government official will look at the decision again, awarding benefit if they decide the decision was incorrect, or passing on to independent Tribunal Judges if they remain unconvinced. During reconsideration – in effect an ‘informal appeal’ – claimants will no longer be entitled to ESA at the assessment rate.

Instead their only option will be to apply for Jobseekers Allowance (JSA). But this requires claimants to be available for work, which given that many will eventually be recognised as unable to do so by a Judge, will be difficult. These people could end up being too fit for ESA, but to sick or disabled for JSA, and this is the contradiction I’ll be raising with Government Ministers today.


If you were in Sheila’s shoes and you were able to put your views forward to the government ministers, what would you say? What questions would you ask them?

Maybe Sheila should spend some time in my shoes?


They're not a comfortable fit.


The question i ask, full stop, is? :-



How is one expected to live, with no income?


Approaching what was my old retirement age, i've already been shafted by the government, as i'll now receive half my state retirement pension for another 10 years which i'm expected to work, before i receive my state pension, (in the form of Jsa.) I've recently received my pension forecast. I was quite shocked to realise i have worked every year of my life it has been possible to work, 40 working years so far, i qualify for my full pension, I paid into into serps, i should also receive a graduated pension, (which i won't receive either, with the pension reforms?) It was a superb cost cutting exercise, for people in my situation, who are too ill to work, but now too young to receive state pension, (and bus pass.) Genius. I'm now potentially unemployed, and not retired, and receive half the amount as a goodwill gesture?


Back to the question, what would i ask?

How do you propose i live, with no income? Esa is stopped whilst i appeal, (it's one appeal after the other,) which presumably means that housing benefit and council tax benefit, will also cease? I'm now forced to sign on otherwise i've no income, and i'll become homeless.

This last year has been a revelation as, for the first time in my life, i've entered the realm of what can only be described as the shambles of various governmental departments, ensuing appeal after appeal, and now a decision whether i have the energies to pursue Dwp for maladminstration, as i enter yet another appeal of an original appeal. Lesser souls? tell me to "let it go" however, i've come so far? Well over a years worth of appeals and complaints, is sending my health into rapid decline, once more. However, i feel, as i've paid my "dues" to the government, although the government isn't going to treat me as a valid person, or human being in return, i've come too far to give up now? despite the detrimental affect on my health. Who cares, anyway? Besides, i always finish what i start.


However, and this is the point, i refuse to sign on for work, as in doing so, i'm agreeing i'm fit for work. Which i'm not. Which contravenes any law? Which also potentially leaves me with no income. No savings. No one to help me out financially, unfortunately.

Now what do i do? No income, no home. Plan B?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
Jobseekers are being made forced to complete bogus psychometric tests by the DWP by being told [an official DWP letter] they risk losing their benefits if they do not complete a purportless online questionnaire. The test is called My Strengths, devised by Downing Street's behavioural insights team or "nudge" unit, it has already been exposed by bloggers as a sham with results having no relation to the answers given, the real purpose of the pseudo test is to 'condition' a JSA applicant into getting off the dole within 13 weeks. If you open the test in 10 different browser windows and complete the test 10 different ways the answer URL="http://blog.gemmapeter.co.uk/2013/04/23/dwp-personal-strengths-test/"]by design or really bad coding[/URL is always the same.

As a matter of interest i've just taken the psychometric test. Here are my results:-




Your results!

Think about how you can use these strengths in your job search and in your life in general

Try to find a new way to use them then everyday

Strength 1. Originality

Thinking of new ways to do things is a crucial part of who you are. You are never content with doing something the conventional way if a better way is possible.
Strength 2. Honesty

You are an honest person, not only by speaking the truth, but by living your life in a genuine and authentic way. You are down to earth and without pretense.
Strength 3. Kindness

You are kind and generous to others, and you are never too busy to do a favour. You enjoy doing good deeds for others, even if you do not know them well.
Strength 4. Dedication

You work hard to finish what you start. No matter the project, you complete it in timely fashion. You do not get distracted when you work, and you take satisfaction in completing tasks.
Strength 5. Fairness


Treating all people fairly is one of your abiding principles. You do not let your personal feelings bias% your decisions about other people. You give everyone a chance.



Fill in your email address address below to have your strengths emailed to you. You may want to discuss these with your advisor at your next meeting.



Does this make me more likely to find a job within 13 weeks?

I think not.

On balance, i'm more insulted. It's an insult to my integrity, (although i'm all of the above mentioned.)


I've had a look at the jobs available, and i can't find one job i would be "qualified" to apply for. Not even the fields in which i've worked, all my working life. In the past, i've applied to agencies who wouldn't add me to their books. I've been told by a teenager barely out of school, i need this or that qualification to register for a job, despite the fact i've a lifetimes experience in that field. At the moment, i don't have the capabilities to study for a degree or any qualification, for that matter. There are a limited amount of jobs available in my area. The logistics of travelling 100's of miles for working for a few hours a week. I couldn't do it. In fact, i have travelled 100's of miles in my working life, just to earn money, (and ended up worse off.)


Lets face it, my age is against me, too, in the job market.


Some people don't live in the real world?


Oh, and it's taken me approx 5 hours to write this post.






I should add -


Assuming this governmental IT specialist returns to this thread they have started, i will be happy to discuss with them, what has been described by everyone still involved with my case as a "very complex case," made so by various governmental departments.


Maybe you could help with resolution with this particular appeal which is now under second appeal and has been ongoing for over a year?

I'm under no misconception a life on benefits means a life of appeals and therefore, stress.

Richie-from-the-Boro

I qualified to the administer, interpret and feedback level in the middle 80's with what was then the [MSC] Manpower Services Commission, they paid the extortionate £1800 that the course cost. The then transition from paper to computer based application and administration was the driver of cost, this was reflected in the price of the course. I was already employed in coding at the time with a four year existing day to day relationship with JC managers and district managers, including the MSC and others delivering national qualitative initiatives to the government & training industry. Its not Psychometrics that I don't like, its the use that a badly constructed test is put to, crap in equals crap outcomes for people who are subjected to a badly made tests.

markmarkmark

I'd like to see the politicians take a true and valid psychometric test and examine their results for honesty, kindness and fairness.

And compare them with their results for deceit, indifference and partiality!