Term time holiday fine question.

jonnyb1978

Dal_Whinnie wrote: »

I have been trying to make sense of the Education Act 1996 (as amended) and the relevant Regulations (referred to above and as amended earlier this year).

In my son's case his former partner (who is the non resident parent) has decided to take the children away during term time and has been refused permission. She intends to ignore this and my son has received a penalty notification.

A number of people have given their opinions but I would really like to understand the legal basis for these views (relevant section, etc) because the following points do not appear clear from my reading

1. Is the penalty per offence?
2. Is each days absence a separate offence?
3. Can a penalty be levied on more than one parent for the same offence?
4. Where one parent acts unilaterally (as in my son's case) can the other parent still be liable to a penalty?

How can they send a penalty notice before the child has even been taken out.?

Dal_Whinnie

jonnyb1978 wrote: »

How can they send a penalty notice before the child has even been taken out.?

point accepted but he has been advised that this will happen if child is taken out of school so my questions remain the same.

Various contributors have quoted different authorities or given their views, what I would find really helpful is a step by step guide through the legislation. For example, the Education (Penalty Notices (England) Regulations 2007 (as amended by 2013 Regulations) states in Reg.13 that more than one person may be liable but who is liable?

I was hoping that somebody on this forum might be able to give a legal view since I have limited time to go through the whole relevant legislation.

jonnyb1978

To be fair I dont know anything on the leglislation but I would treat this like any other debt. The computers churn out the letter and the staff have not got a clue either due to lack of training and working from a script when challenged.

I would acknowledge no such debt in a letter. Its down to them to prove the circumstance. Regarding who is reliable im assuming the parent (s) who the child resides with. If a non residing parent takes them away the residing parent will still have known and allowed it. If just one residing parent went on holiday the other will also have known about it.
So to summarise
1. Child lives with both parents/guardians - both liable.
2. Child lives with one parent/ guardian - that parent liable.(even if non residing parent has gone on holiday)

Im just assuming though but makes sense.

sovilla

I have just recently had to pay a fine for one of my step daughters.

I have 5 children, 4 step and 1 my own, although we have full custody due to abuse by their mother.

Anyways I requested authorisation to take them on holiday in June this year. My mum was having treatment for tongue cancer and their other nanna was having chemo for breast cancer and it was affecting the children and I was not in a good place. Although they are all in the same school. its split between infants and juniors. My eldest (8) was in the juniors and she was authorised as she had been upset in class. My 6 year old however was not authorised as they said it wasnt affecting her (even though she started wetting the bed).

My 4 year old and 3 year a old were not authorised either but as they were not at compulsary school age we didnt have to pay for them. I also had a big discussion with the education welfare officer because im just their step mum, I cannot authorise school trips or sign anything in school but because I have day to day care I had to pay also. So we got a fine for £100.

I could have contested it but after 28 days it doubles and then if still not paid you go to court and it could be thousands, I just didnt have the strenght to fight it so paid it.

Next year I am planning on taking them out of school again. Having 5 children the cost for us to go on holiday is horrendus in the school holidays. Your talking around £4000 just to go to salou for a week. So I will pay the fine again as its much cheaper that way.

Guest101

Dal_Whinnie wrote: »

I have been trying to make sense of the Education Act 1996 (as amended) and the relevant Regulations (referred to above and as amended earlier this year).

In my son's case his former partner (who is the non resident parent) has decided to take the children away during term time and has been refused permission. She intends to ignore this and my son has received a penalty notification.

A number of people have given their opinions but I would really like to understand the legal basis for these views (relevant section, etc) because the following points do not appear clear from my reading

1. Is the penalty per offence? The out of court settlement is per offence afaik
2. Is each days absence a separate offence? it can be seen as such.
3. Can a penalty be levied on more than one parent for the same offence? Yes, this out of court settlement can be levied against both parents.
4. Where one parent acts unilaterally (as in my son's case) can the other parent still be liable to a penalty? They can offer this to anyone they like

This is not a fine, and this is why its important to see the difference. The only people who fine you are the courts. Otherwise your offered an out of court settlement. If your son can prove he has not given any permission for her to take the kids, then he hould be fine. I presume she's not taking them abroad? As she cant do that without his permission anyway.

Guest101

sovilla wrote: »

I have just recently had to pay a fine for one of my step daughters.

I have 5 children, 4 step and 1 my own, although we have full custody due to abuse by their mother.

Anyways I requested authorisation to take them on holiday in June this year. My mum was having treatment for tongue cancer and their other nanna was having chemo for breast cancer and it was affecting the children and I was not in a good place. Although they are all in the same school. its split between infants and juniors. My eldest (8) was in the juniors and she was authorised as she had been upset in class. My 6 year old however was not authorised as they said it wasnt affecting her (even though she started wetting the bed).

My 4 year old and 3 year a old were not authorised either but as they were not at compulsary school age we didnt have to pay for them. I also had a big discussion with the education welfare officer because im just their step mum, I cannot authorise school trips or sign anything in school but because I have day to day care I had to pay also. So we got a fine for £100.

I could have contested it but after 28 days it doubles and then if still not paid you go to court and it could be thousands, I just didnt have the strenght to fight it so paid it.

Next year I am planning on taking them out of school again. Having 5 children the cost for us to go on holiday is horrendus in the school holidays. Your talking around £4000 just to go to salou for a week. So I will pay the fine again as its much cheaper that way.

Not being funny, but your attitude is why the government gets away with taxing your kids. I do see your point, but this is not a fine.

And whilst you may have breached the 'law', certainly any court would've found you not guilty in these exceptional circumstances.

The LEA can still take you to court instead of these 'fines' - out of court settlements.

Guest101

Valli wrote: »

Actually an out of court settlement is an agreement reached in a (usually civil) case which then means the case doesn't progress to a court hearing at all...there is no guilty plea involved.

http://www.settleoutofcourt.com/

The term out of court settlement is used in the descriptive sense. I think you'll find that there is a guilty pleas involved.

You are offered the option of pleading guilty, by accepting the PCN, and your punishment is the 'fine', and in some cases such as Motoring offences, points on your licence.

No-one can just add points onto your licence, without you first accepting, and acknowledging, your guilt.

A civil ut of court settlement is slightly different, as indeed there is no guilty plea in that case.

FBaby

because im just their step mum, I cannot authorise school trips or sign anything in school but because I have day to day care I had to pay also.

This really gets to me. You are good enough to pay for your step-children, but not good enough to authorise for their care. What a insult from the government to support this position legally

The information we have been provided from my DD secondary school is quite interesting. For one, we had nothing last year's term only this week in the newsletter (and that is the last item in page 7!). It says : 'You will need to complete a form and return it 14 days before the proposed absence. The Head Teacher will then make a decision whether the absence is considered to be an exceptional circumstances'

From this I read that it is very much up to the HT to decide what HE wants to consider exceptional, especially when reading what follows 'What if the unauthorised holiday is taken? The school MAY request the local authority to issue a Penalty Notice'

I read this as not only the HT has liberty to make the decision just as before, it is just referred officially as exceptional circumstances now, but also can still decided whether to refer the case or not afterwards if not approved. I always felt that the school didn't support that new legislation and this message would seem to support this. It doesn't seem any different to what it was before really!

Spendless

FBaby wrote: »

The information we have been provided from my DD secondary school is quite interesting. For one, we had nothing last year's term only this week in the newsletter (and that is the last item in page 7!). It says : 'You will need to complete a form and return it 14 days before the proposed absence. The Head Teacher will then make a decision whether the absence is considered to be an exceptional circumstances'

From this I read that it is very much up to the HT to decide what HE wants to consider exceptional, especially when reading what follows 'What if the unauthorised holiday is taken? The school MAY request the local authority to issue a Penalty Notice'

I read this as not only the HT has liberty to make the decision just as before, it is just referred officially as exceptional circumstances now, but also can still decided whether to refer the case or not afterwards if not approved. I always felt that the school didn't support that new legislation and this message would seem to support this. It doesn't seem any different to what it was before really!

Yes, though I had additional info that I've repeated on here. It sounded like my kids schools sought clarification from the council over defining 'exceptional circs'. I've copied and pasted from their letter

HOLIDAYS DURING TERM TIME – IMPORTANT INFORMATION

I have just received the attached letter outlining a change in the law regarding holidays taken during term time. As you will be aware, the law has allowed me to authorise a single holiday of up to 10 days during term time. From September 2013, this right has been removed. I will only be allowed to authorise a “Leave of Absence” in “exceptional circumstances.”
Of course this raises the question of what are “exceptional circumstances.” Our Local Authority has issued the following advice;

Where it is company/organisational policy for an employee to take leave at a specific time in the year and there is no opportunity for a family holiday in school holidays. This must be evidenced by production of the policy document of the organisation.

Service personnel returning from/scheduled to embark upon a tour of duty abroad.

Where a holiday is recommended as part of a parent or child’s rehabilitation from a medical or emotional issue. Evidence must be provided.

Where there are other factors which the headteacher may consider to be consider to be exceptional circumstances this may be referred to the Local Authority for advice

There's nothing to say all other schools or LAs are following the same clarification though and can apply their own rules to what are 'exceptional circs'

FBaby

But it states that this is 'advice'. Ultimately it is still up headteachers to decide what THEY consider exceptional circumstances.