Staying after S21 deadline, last months rent?, deposit uncertainty

Cody

Dear Forum;

I have posted before about my situation, but thought would start a new thread since topic has changed.

My current situation, in a nutshell as possible.

• We have rented flat for 5 years, my partner and 2 young boys, 2 and 5.
• Rent is £1300 / month
• LL gave us a S21 notice two months ago, with requested move out date 25th August (rent date). It was served correctly.
• We have always paid rent and all bills ontime, we have never have been a problem..
• Despite thorough searching, we have been unable to find affordable alternative accomodation in the area close enough to my sons school, and have decided to relocate to Ireland, where my partner is from.
• My partner needs to provide three months notice on her job, which she has done 6 weeks ago.
• The LL is very inflexible in our move out date, despite our friendly requsts to extend it by 4-6 weeks, to allow my partner to see out our notice before we leave.
• The LL threatend to make us pay builders deposits (she had scheduled work to start next week) she had provided if we do not move out, I have since made it clear we are not liable for this.
• The deposit is held in a protection scheme.
• We have decided to stay on in the house until the LL recieves a court possession order.

My dilema at the moment:

My partner and I are in dissagreement whether to pay the last months rent, which is £1300. The deposit held is £1660. My partner thinks we shouldnt since she believes the LL will not return our deposit, and find niggly things, expecially since she is angry with us for not moving out.

I on the other hand think the deposit protection scheme will be a reasonable process and we are likely to recieve a near full deposit back.

Not paying rent this month however would be useful since we can use it then towards deposit for the next home, so I am in two minds.

If we did not pay the £1300, I believe then the LL will take this out of the deposit. But would she then also be able to not return the 360 remaining?, or woud we write this off. Or if she wanted (she is a vindictive person and may wish too) could she pursue us in courts for the unpaid rent, despite of the deposit being available to cover it.

I would prefer to pay the last months rent, but I am fearful that this will put us in a weaker positon with regards to seeing the deposit money again.

We are intending on leaving the property in a clean and tidy state, with only reasonable wear and tear damage, which would be expected over a 5 year tenancy.

Many thanks for your thoughts in advance.

Cody

Werdnal

As you have been told on your previous thread by me and several others, the LL cannot offer you an extension to the notice as this will invalidate it and they will have to start all over again with a new notice. They can hold off applying to court for possession, but this is not something they need to advise you of, as again, any verbal agreement to let you stay/extend etc, will over-ride the apparently valid notice they have issued you. They are understandably reluctant to do this, as although you say you only want a few extra weeks, should you default and stay on, the 2 month notice process starts from scratch.

As for not paying the last month's rent, that is entirely your call. The LL has not breached anything, as they are following the correct process to evict you and up until now you claim to have been excellent tenants. As your liability to pay rent remains until possession is granted, you will be in breach of the tenancy if you withhold the last month. Are you expecting a reference from this LL for your next property - if so, she will have every right to tell them you are non-paying tenants.

Have you actually checked the deposit scheme holding your money to verify it is there? If so, do you have a full and thorough inventory covering the condition of the property and every room, contents, decor, flooring etc from the move in date? LLs need proof for deductions and if this document and a comparable check-out report is not available, the LL will not have this proof, and deposit schemes invariably find in the tenant's favour should the LL not have evidence for the deductions. Of course, the LL may opt out of the deposit arbitration anyway, and take you to court, and you in turn can sue them for return of the deposit if things turn nasty.

You seem to have been exemplary tenants until now, and in your position I would not want to jeopardise that reputation by withholding rent you are legally due to pay, but its your money, and your call!


For clarity, OP's previous posts here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4727259=


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4682203=


which have already covered a lot of this!!!!!!!!!

Mr_Moo_2

What Werdnal says. Keep it all legal - you're entitled to stay beyond the S21 expiry until a court evicts you, but if you're there then you pay the rent as agreed.

Cody

Thanks Werdnal;

I understand why the LL hasnt agreed to extend the tenancy, the responses in the previous threads have been more tham extremally helpful in guiding me through this process as a whole.

I started the new post to simplify and specifically regardng whether to withold the last months rent as security against not having the deposit returned, and was wondering whether this is a good or a bad idea in other peoples opinion.

We do have a detailed inventory from 5 years ago. I have the DPS certificate, but I havnt actually called them up, it does look bona fide however and was set up by a reputatable local estate agents.

Something to sleep on I think.

Cody

agrinnall

Why do you think the deposit might not be returned? If it's in a DPS then the LL must abide by the scheme rules, which will only allow deductions for provable costs. You will get back whatever you are due. Threatening to withold the last month's rent has a tinge of blackmail about it.

Werdnal

If I were your LL, sitting waiting for your S21 to expire, but also contemplating the fact that you have asked for a slight delay in applying for court action to allow you to move on, I would be much more likely to be applying for court on the day the notice ends if I find your rent has stopped!

You want the LL to consider letting you stay, and whilst she seems unlikley to delay the court action, she might do so, so why risk anagonising her even more by not paying what you owe!

Having now waded throught he info in your previous posts, all of which is relevant so there was no need to start another post on the same thing, you mention having a DPS certificate. Did you receive the full Prescribed Information and Terms and Conditions from the deposit scheme via the agent or LL? The certificate alone is not enough. If you did not receive this:

http://www.depositprotection.com/documents/prescribed-information-template.pdf

or similar from the DPS (they have changed their PI over time so this may be the newer version than you would have been issued and different schemes have different documents), then the current S21 is actually invalid.

The deposit scheme requires the LL to provide this information to the tenant, and if they or the agent have only supplied you with a single page certificate, then the notice cannot be valid. They will have to issue you with the documents above, then serve another notice after this, in order for the court to accept it.

Check your tenancy agreement documents to see if you ever received it. It should have been issued within 30 days of the deposit payment, so may be buried somewhere, but this may buy you some time if you didn't receive it.

Even reputable (:rotfl:) estate agents make mistakes!

mrginge

Given you're looking at '4-6 weeks' what makes you so sure that this would be your last rent.

Or if you fell into a second month would you not pay that one either?

You know they put these schemes in place to help protect tenant's money and then we get tenants ignoring this fact and trying to rip off their landlords.

Cody

agrinnall, I'm not blackmailing the LL, I'm not using it as a bargaining point with her.

The deposit is £360 more than the rent, which I would not expect to be returned to us if I didnt pay last months rent.

mrgringe, I have no intention on ripping off the landlord, I am just concerned that the LL will be disgruntled that we had not moved out on her requested date and make retrieving our deposit difficult. I have never had to retrieve a deposit before from a DPS and so I am unsure on the opportunity for the LL to make it difficult for us. I believe that we might actually have to take her to court in order to have it returned, if she chose to be difficult. There is no damage to the house other than reasonable wear and tear, the hosue will be left clean and in good condition.

werdnal, I believe I do have the full prescribed terms and conditions, I will need to dig that up later.

My preference was originally and still is as is suggested, to pay rent and expect the deposit to be returned appropiately. Being a joint tenancy I now need to convince my other half that this is the best course of action.

thanks

Cody

IronWolf

If it was me, I would keep paying rent. The deposit is protected so any deductions can be contested and will need to be defended by the LL.

In your situation you are already being somewhat of a nuisance so I would try and keep the LL off your back as much as you can.

[Deleted User]

If you don't pay rent you're putting yourself in a very tenuous situation. If your deposit is protected your landlord must return it if there is no legitimate reason not to: if there is a legitimate reason to withhold the deposit and you've left them with no deposit (as requiring your deposit to be used as final months rent will do so) their only recourse will be to go through small claims to force you to pay for any problems. Do you want to risk that?

If you can afford to do it: pay the rent. You're putting your landlord in a bad position if they have a mortgage (as they can't touch your deposit until after you have left, even if you were to abandon it) and you're adding complexity to the situation that is unneeded.

As long as you have the time to argue with the landlord in arbitration (should they try and withhold your deposit for invalid reasons) there is no reason to withhold the rent that you owe and doing so is not a good idea.

mrginge

Cody wrote: »

mrgringe, I have no intention on ripping off the landlord, I am just concerned that the LL will be disgruntled that we had not moved out on her requested date and make retrieving our deposit difficult. I have never had to retrieve a deposit before from a DPS and so I am unsure on the opportunity for the LL to make it difficult for us. I believe that we might actually have to take her to court in order to have it returned, if she chose to be difficult. There is no damage to the house other than reasonable wear and tear, the hosue will be left clean and in good condition.

Not paying rent is ripping off the landlord.

The LL may well make things difficult and force you to go to court in order to get your deposit back.
Just like you can make things difficult for the LL by forcing them to go to court to evict you.

Of course, the LL has no option but to go to court in his case, while you have the option of and added protection of the DPS in yours.