Real-life MMD: If I'm paying rent, why should I tidy my room?

snowleopard61

Mojisola wrote: »

Does this ever change? If the OP, aged 60, moved back to live with and care for his elderly father, would his father still be able to dictate the level of tidiness in his son's room?

If the father moved - at any age - into the son's house, should the son have the right to inspect his father's room and say how it should look because it was "his house and his rules"?

Apologies for the slight delay in answering this, Mojisola; I didn’t read it until the following day and then wanted to consider it. I’m interpreting these as genuine questions (‘Is this situation different, and if so how?’) rather than purely rhetorical, although your own view is clear from your comments elsewhere in the thread. It’s tempting to set out a whole philosophical examination of this, but this isn’t the place!

If the son moved in to care for his elderly father, he would be doing his father a favour, and it would be reasonable to expect more leeway, but it would still be inconsiderate in the son not to maintain the standards of tidiness he knew his father had always expected.

In the second case, I suppose we have to assume that the father and son are different people with the opposite approaches to tidiness, otherwise it would be highly ironical in the circumstances if the father later moved into the son’s house and kept his own room untidy - I find it quite difficult to imagine this happening except where the father was mentally or physically unequal to the task of keeping the room tidy. If this were the case, I think it would be reasonable for the son to insist on tidying the room, but not to insist the father do so. If the father were in normal health and strength, it would be reasonable for the son to insist the room be kept tidy.

I’ll admit that my views of the original situation are coloured by the fact that I don’t think the parental relationship is fundamentally different because the ‘child’ is a young adult, or because the ‘child’ is paying what is described as ‘rent’. I can’t know in this case, but in most of these situations the parents are not setting out to make a commercial transaction, but allowing the adult child to live at home because of the relationship that exists between them and accepting the ‘rent’ so as not to be out of pocket. This is different from a landlord/tenant situation, and even from a landlord/lodger situation, although I also think the latter is different from the former because the landlord has to live in the house with the messy room. I’ll also admit that (as my original comment indicated) I do hold the view that untidiness is a sign of immaturity and that most of us grow out of it, and we all should.

ETA: I wonder whose job it is to clean the room? The room certainly needs to be kept clean (most of the posters above agree on this) and this isn't possible unless it's tidied.

Mojisola

snowleopard61 wrote: »

I’m interpreting these as genuine questions (‘Is this situation different, and if so how?’) rather than purely rhetorical, although your own view is clear from your comments elsewhere in the thread. It’s tempting to set out a whole philosophical examination of this, but this isn’t the place!

In the second case, I suppose we have to assume that the father and son are different people with the opposite approaches to tidiness, otherwise it would be highly ironical in the circumstances if the father later moved into the son’s house and kept his own room untidy

I’ll admit that my views of the original situation are coloured by the fact that I don’t think the parental relationship is fundamentally different because the ‘child’ is a young adult, or because the ‘child’ is paying what is described as ‘rent’.

Mojisola wrote: »

That could lead to an interesting situation if the father ever moves in with his son - "Dad, I've told you I'm not having your room kept like a show home. It's my house, so it's my rules. If you don't make your room a bit untidier, I'm coming in there to do it myself!"

I wasn't thinking that the father might be untidy but too tidy for the son's tastes. People are saying that the father's rules should be complied with because it's his house - would it work the other way if it was the son's house?

Unlike you, I do think my relationship with my children is fundamentally different now that they are adults.

There is mutual respect and, when they live at home with us, I respect their private room as just that.

snowleopard61

Mojisola wrote: »

I wasn't thinking that the father might be untidy but too tidy for the son's tastes. People are saying that the father's rules should be complied with because it's his house - would it work the other way if it was the son's house?

An interesting and humorous point, but I think the obvious absurdity of it just serves to point up that we all at some level recognise that tidiness is universally preferable, and not just a matter of taste.

Unlike you, I do think my relationship with my children is fundamentally different now that they are adults.

There is mutual respect and, when they live at home with us, I respect their private room as just that.

I hope I've always respected my children at any age (I'm sure you did too) but I don't think the right to privacy in a family is absolute. For example, in a large house, simply shutting the door on the mess may be tolerable; in a very small one, even keeping the doors shut can be difficult - in mine, keeping one daughter's door permanently shut cuts out most of the light from the stairs, and the other's room leads directly off my own, so I can't be unaware of it even though the door is mostly shut.

Mojisola

snowleopard61 wrote: »

An interesting and humorous point, but I think the obvious absurdity of it just serves to point up that we all at some level recognise that tidiness is universally preferable, and not just a matter of taste.

I hope I've always respected my children at any age (I'm sure you did too) but I don't think the right to privacy in a family is absolute. For example, in a large house, simply shutting the door on the mess may be tolerable; in a very small one, even keeping the doors shut can be difficult - in mine, keeping one daughter's door permanently shut cuts out most of the light from the stairs, and the other's room leads directly off my own, so I can't be unaware of it even though the door is mostly shut.

Well, it is a bit amusing but it shows that "my house, my rules" doesn't hold in some situations - I don't think that it holds up regarding an adult son's bedroom.

I'm not sure I agree with the "tidiness is better" theory - there are plenty of people whose house/office might look untidy to others but they know exactly where everything is. Some of the most creative people live in what others would describe as a tip - I don't think they would be better people if they tidied up.

It's also a spectrum - someone who has OCD tendencies is going to consider a "normally tidy" person as untidy.

In the original thread that this one is taken from, the OP had a few pairs of shoes on the floor and a newspaper on a cupboard and some clothes on a chair. Really not an issue!

snowleopard61

Mojisola wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with the "tidiness is better" theory - there are plenty of people whose house/office might look untidy to others but they know exactly where everything is. Some of the most creative people live in what others would describe as a tip - I don't think they would be better people if they tidied up.

It's also a spectrum - someone who has OCD tendencies is going to consider a "normally tidy" person as untidy.

Fair points.

flimflam_machine

Mojisola wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with the "tidiness is better" theory - there are plenty of people whose house/office might look untidy to others but they know exactly where everything is. Some of the most creative people live in what others would describe as a tip - I don't think they would be better people if they tidied up.

It's also a spectrum - someone who has OCD tendencies is going to consider a "normally tidy" person as untidy.

Well put. Many posts on this thread have rather missed this point and descended into tedious moralising with people projecting their feelings about tidiness onto the OP. All these "grow up" and "get some self-respect" posts can basically be ignored because they're not relevant to the actual question of "is the OP's Dad/landlord being unreasonable?" In my view, yes he is, eiether as a parent (of a 24-year old) or as a landlord it is unreasonable for him to tell the OP to tidy his room. I'd disagree with the proposed solution of simply moving out though. The best solution is to discuss it like two adults. If you can't do that, then move out.

snowleopard61

flimflam_machine wrote: »

Many posts on this thread have rather missed this point and descended into tedious moralising with people projecting their feelings about tidiness onto the OP. All these "grow up" and "get some self-respect" posts can basically be ignored because they're not relevant to the actual question of "is the OP's Dad/landlord being unreasonable?"

Except that the question is posed as, "If I'm paying rent, why should I tidy my room?" and one valid answer to that (with which you may or may not agree) is "Because everyone should, it's part of being a grown-up."

flimflam_machine

snowleopard61 wrote: »

Except that the question is posed as, "If I'm paying rent, why should I tidy my room?"

Fair enough, I was focussing more on the "is my Dad being unreasonable?" bit, which shifts the question slightly to "should I tidy my room because I'm told to?" My answer to which is "No, not because your Dad tells you to (because you're 24) and not because your landlord tells you to (because it's your private space having paid rent for it - normal caveats apply etc.)"

and one valid answer to that (with which you may or may not agree) is "Because everyone should, it's part of being a grown-up."

Says you. I wouldn't consider the OP any less grown-up because his room doesn't satisfy, my, your, his Dad's or anyone else's standard of tidiness. As usual, xkcd got there first: xkcd.com/150/

scrabbly

For goodness sake - GROW UP ! If you are childish enough to be upset when all you are asked to do is keep your room tidy perhaps you had better not move out - doesn't sound like you are old enough!

snowleopard61

flimflam_machine wrote: »

Says you. I wouldn't consider the OP any less grown-up because his room doesn't satisfy, my, your, his Dad's or anyone else's standard of tidiness. As usual, xkcd got there first: xkcd.com/150/

I said the answer was valid, not unquestionably right; that is to say, it is a direct and relevant answer to the question in hand, which is what you were disputing.

But the cartoon is funny.