DPF's and RPM's

TradePro

Martyn1981 wrote: »

My understanding is that he was getting a lot of electrical faults, but the main issue was the auto stop/start which I understand has to be switched off each time you start the car up (?) so he kept forgetting. Some times (after warming up) it would work (stop), sometimes not. Also if it stopped, it often didn't start back up, so he'd have to turn the ignition off and back on, whilst being beeped at by people behind.

Thanks for replying Mart.

It's highly unusual to get electrical faults with a Sportage - South Korea pretty much lead the World in electronics nowadays, he may have been unlucky and got a one-off faulty car, but highly unusual indeed.

You are really supposed to leave the ISG system ON, rather than switch it off all the time.

It is normal for it to only work some of the time - as per it's name, it's intelligent...

If the outside temperature is too cold, it doesn't work.

If the battery charge level is under 75%, it doesn't work.

If you have A/C, heated rear window, heated seats or many other gadgets switched on, it doesn't work.

The bit that's really confusing me is the times it stopped but didn't restart, that should be almost impossible.

I honestly think the DPF was misdiagnosed, but of course couldn't prove either way.

Martyn1981

Hiya TP, thanks for the info. Just to clarify, he didn't have any problems for about a month. He did notice that it didn't 'work' at the start of a journey, when the engine was cold, but quickly realised why. [Edit and with the A/C on]

After about a month it got extremely erratic and the visits to the dealership began. He then started switching it off to prevent the problem, but as stated, it resets each time.

The worst situation he had, was it not starting, then after holding up a transit van full of gentlemen with 'scrap metal tendencies', he pulled away only for the engine to cut out, and they nearly crashed into him. They then decided they want to discuss the matter in greater depth (but couldn't get in, as the car auto locks once you get up to speed) whilst he, still flustered, managed to switch the engine off, and re-start it.

TBH, my thoughts were that this was more of an electrical problem, but I felt he (and my sister) could negotiate the issue with Kia with 'clean hands', whilst I would have felt a bit of a liar, having recommended he get a petrol in the first place.

Plus, Kia's own suggested RPM's required 4th gear 70mph driving, which they seemed to accept (after my sister arranged a full sit down meeting) was unreasonable, having not warned him when buying the car.

I think he bought the wrong car. I think the car had electrical faults. I think Kia acted very fairly over the swap. I think my sister did well. I think 3,000rpm+ driving is not particularly reasonable, but I think 700rpm+ driving is extremely reasonable. So I'm torn now as to whether he should go back to a diesel for what he assumes will be his last car, before hanging his keys up for good.

Mart.

Johnmcl7

I can't find a UK Kia manual for the diesel engine but on reading Kia forums I can't find anything about needing to rev the engine anywhere near that hard to clear the DPF - any information I can find is in line with what I'd expect which is 40mph+ at above 2,000 rpm.

With the VW engines (the Kia engines seem to behave the same way) the DPF starts collecting particles and it will initially try a passive regeneration which happens in the background without the driver being aware. If the engine is running hot enough for a reasonable amount of time such as a motorway drive, the engine will be able to clear the filter without the driver needing to do anything different.

If however the filter cannot be cleared passively such as when the car is being used for a lot of short journeys then the engine needs to do an active regeneration - a light will come up on the dashboard and the car needs to be driven at 40mph+ and above 2,000 rpm continuously until the light goes out.

If the active regeneration fails the car switches on the engine management light and goes to limp home mode at which point it has to be taken to a dealer. In the first case they can run a process to clear the filter but after that if it happens again, the DPF has to be replaced which is a pricey repair.

Older Euro IV engines were generally more troublesome because they weren't designed for a DPF and could struggle to get enough heat to complete passive regeneration. Newer engines designed for DPF's are much better at completing passive regeneration themselves leading to less DPF issues overall although they still can have problems.

I agree with the posts above that it doesn't sound like the car was having DPF issues because it should start fine even with a faulty DPF but would show an engine management light. I have mixed views on DPF's, I hear a lot of bad things about them which put me off diesel engines but then I have an engine known to be bad for DPF issues and haven't had the DPF light ever come on. The only issue I've had is the DPF sensor failed but there's plenty of sensors that can fail so that's not a DPF specific issue. Those that have had the same engine as mine and had DPF troubles then changed to the newer version (common rail 2.0 TDI 170bhp with electronically controlled injection rather than mechanically controlled as on the older one) have had far less issues with the DPF (bar the occasional sensor problem).

John

photome

I am not convinced about the 4500 revs

I have a Kia diesel ceed 1.6, I dont think it will rev that high, even when accelerating hard it barely reaches those revs.

I have never had any issues with the DPF but then I do do lots of miles about 30000 a year

Martyn1981

Thanks John, and everyone else. I think general consensus here is that it wasn't the DPF, but my father should consider his lower and slower driving if thinking about a diesel.

Going back to the original post and the Skoda DPF page, I've checked the Yeti details on-line, brochure here:

https://tools.skoda.co.uk/brochure_yeti.pdf

and both the 1.6TDi and 2.0TDi have the designation 'CR' after them, so the page that they copied for my father appears to be correct, as it states 'for Common Rail diesel engines'.

So does anyone think that the stated 23mph and 700rpm for 10 to 15mins is too good to be true, or should I (and my father) take faith in German documentation?

I don't want to mislead him, but it would nice to be able to go back and say;
1. Most people seem to think this was an electrical issue.
2. 3, 3.5 or 4 thousand rpm's for the Kia seem a little high.
3. 2,000rpm for a VW/Skoda sounds reasonable.
4. Skoda say 700rpm, no reason to doubt them.

Hopefully he'll get over it, and stick with the petrol Sportage, but nice if he has the option of a diesel, without the DPF terror/paranoia he's now developed.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

Mart.

Edit: One more question (sorry). He's also now got a fear/hatred for auto stop/start, but looking at the Yeti brochure, the 1.6TDi 'Greenline' smashes the 2.0CDi with much better fuel economy and tax rates, for only a small difference in power and torque ....... but ...... it comes with stop/start.

Anyone having problems with stop/start technology, be it Kia, Skoda, VW or other? M.

Ultrasonic

Martyn1981 wrote: »

So does anyone think that the stated 23mph and 700rpm for 10 to 15mins is too good to be true, or should I (and my father) take faith in German documentation?

If I were you, I would ask Skoda (either the dealership or possibly by e-mailing Skoda UK) specifically about this. And if you did I would personally be very interested in their response.

What their document says is:

Drive continuously for about 10-15 minutes at a speed of at least 23 mph whilst maintaining an engine speed of 700 rpm or above.

(I added the bold.) The 'continuously' part would, strictly, preclude much normal driving where you may need to stop at a junction or roundabout, such that although the stated speed and rpm are low it would still effectively mean still driving on a section of motorway or the like for 10-15 minutes. But it would mean you could drive normally on a motorway rather than having to change down to keep the revs high.

Edit: One more question (sorry). He's also now got a fear/hatred for auto stop/start, but looking at the Yeti brochure, the 1.6TDi 'Greenline' smashes the 2.0CDi with much better fuel economy and tax rates, for only a small difference in power and torque ....... but ...... it comes with stop/start.

Two thoughts:

1) I'm not going to check the pricelist now, but does the Greenline model come at a price premium? I think they do. If so, from a purely financial point of view, your dad should consider what his annual mileage is (I'm guessing low) and see how far he'd have to drive to make up the difference in cost. Including tax.

2) Have a look at the following two sources to see what drivers of the models actually get, and perhaps of slightly older ones too if they're very new. It is usually the case that for real world driving the mpg achieved for the 'greenest' models falls shorter of manufacturer claims than other models.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/skoda
http://www.fuelly.com/car/skoda

(Edit: note that fuelly defaults to US mpg; click on the UK button at the top left to see numbers in 'sensible' units. The economy isn't fantastic, but not as bad as it may first appear!)

p.s. I was just kidding around with my silly Sportage comments above. I was surprised to hear of an older driving wanting a car like this. The issue you raise re. comfort for your dad isn't something I had thought of, and makes some sense.

photome

Ultrasonic wrote: »

p.s. I was just kidding around with my silly Sportage comments above. I was surprised to hear of an older driving wanting a car like this. The issue you raise re. comfort for your dad isn't something I had thought of, and makes some sense.

You must be a youngster

Many older people buy that type of car for the same reasons as the OP,s father

ease of access and visibility

anotherbaldrick

Not sure you are listening, you still want to talk about DPF problems when there is really is not one (see my post)
Re ;

"Anyone having problems with stop/start technology, be it Kia, Skoda, VW or other? ".

The VW has an off button on the centre console if you do not want the start /stop operative, doubtless the Skoda has as well ! methinks you are getting too far up !

Martyn1981

Ultrasonic wrote: »

If I were you, I would ask Skoda (either the dealership or possibly by e-mailing Skoda UK) specifically about this. And if you did I would personally be very interested in their response.

What their document says is:

(I added the bold.) The 'continuously' part would, strictly, preclude much normal driving where you may need to stop at a junction or roundabout, such that although the stated speed and rpm are low it would still effectively mean still driving on a section of motorway or the like for 10-15 minutes. But it would mean you could drive normally on a motorway rather than having to change down to keep the revs high.

Hiya Ultrasonic, I'll send them an e-mail and post anything interesting they send back.

Thanks for the comments, I did run through the continuous bit with my father, making sure that he realised that stop and go city drive wasn't the same. What got me, was that 700rpm in any gear on a dual carriageway or motorway seems guaranteed at 50-70mph. So good news, just double checking.

Good points about the price premium, I think the 1.6 is about £100 more on the 'what you should pay' sites.

Also appreciate that mpg's may get even less accurate on the 'special models'.

Ultrasonic wrote: »

p.s. I was just kidding around with my silly Sportage comments above. I was surprised to hear of an older driving wanting a car like this. The issue you raise re. comfort for your dad isn't something I had thought of, and makes some sense.

No probs, and no offence taken. I know what you mean. he moved to a Zafira for entry exit reasons, and then fell in love with the Suzuki XL7 (:o). He now likes his 'sit up and beg' style cars.

anotherbaldrick wrote: »

Not sure you are listening, you still want to talk about DPF problems when there is really is not one (see my post)

Sorry if I have offended you. I did see your post and it was re-assuring both on DPF's in general and VW specifically. I did post this comment:

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Thanks John, and everyone else. I think general consensus here is that it wasn't the DPF, but my father should consider his lower and slower driving if thinking about a diesel.

However I was looking for crowd thinking here, so wouldn't have done my job properly if I just took your word for it - even if it turns out you were completely correct first time round.

Thanks again for your help.

Mart.

Ultrasonic

photome wrote: »

You must be a youngster.

Thanks, best compliment I've had in ages .