EPA between spouses

loulou41

I have read this topic with great interest. Recently my husband had to use general power of attorney for my son. We were surprised to learn that power of attorney does not operate on credit card, it's a Nationwide credit card but it does operate on his debit card. There was also an article in the daily telegraph when a reader mentioned the problems he is having with some financial institutions regarding his son's power of attorney. I just wanted to know what happens on the 1st of October where you have to register the LPA, will it be acceptable to all financial institutions? Even the legal person from the daily telegraph could not give the right answer to the reader's query & advised that person to ask the bank why? I am wondering whether somebody has an answer to this!! Thanks

margaretclare

Well, we still have not done this. I've been quite immobile for the past 5 weeks when I fell and fractured my pelvis so we postponed the planned trip to our solicitor. However, we'll probably manage it this week or next.

Thank goodness for Internet banking and all the rest! If I'd been dependent on going by bus into town and queuing up at the post office to draw my pension, I'd have been dependent on DH to do it for me anyway.

We were planning a trip to Niagara at end of July, that won't happen now, so we've splashed out a bit on a new computer (each). DH was planning to get a new camera but he got a new computer instead, my computer died and I've got a new one as well.

Best wishes to all

Margaret

margaretclare

Just an update - we eventually got around to seeing our solicitor about this a few days ago. We discussed it all at great length, what we wanted/didn't want. Our two EPA documents have been typed out and we're going in again this coming Wednesday to have everything signed and witnessed properly. And then it will only be a question of putting the documents safely with our copy wills, and nothing more needs to be done until one or both of us loses mental capacity.

DH mentioned something which surprised me a bit. He said 'There might come a time when I just get bored of it all, don't want to do anything, have spent decades decision-making and I might want to just hand it over'. Even though, as already explained and as we told the solicitor, it all happens automatically and electronically already and would need very little attention for a long time.

If he ever, as he says, just gets 'bored of it all' it won't require the EPA to be activated as long as I'm around and mentally capable. Our solicitor said 'yes, that's what can happen, that's why you often see sons/daughters handling their parents' affairs even though parent(s) are still compos mentis, just that they've got 'bored of it all'! Son/daughter then comes along, says 'Dad/Mum, why not make an EPA in my favour then I can deal with everything on your behalf, you don't have to worry about a thing'. Our solicitor said he has seen houses sold over the parents' heads in cases like this, money taken from bank accounts to fund children's house purchase, all kinds of things. And this was well before there was ever any question of house having to be sold to fund long-term residential care. He said 'People do strange things when they get pound signs in their eyes'.

Margaret

localhero

Arguably everyone should have an EPA. Illness or accident can strike any time. Then there's old age. 1 in 4 women require care in old age and 1 in 6 men - usually through dementia types illness.

The EPA can be postponed until the donor has lost capacity, so if that never happens, then all well and good. If the EPA is not in place, then the Public Guardianship Office become involved and the process in expensive, burdensome and intrusive (and as willman says it takes ages to sort out).

Margaretclare - you keep saying everything is automated, but have you considered the effect of one of you who let's say, has become incapacitated, suddenly comes into some money, by inheriting or let's say winning the lottery. How is that money used/spent? Would you want an outsider that you haven't chosen deciding for you? I know I wouldn't.

Any EPA taken out now will continue to be effective after October, so people considering one should act now. The new version in my view is quite unnecessary and wlll provide ample opportunity for solicitors to charge even more exorbitant fees.

That said, the figures of £1000 or so bandied around seem excessive. Having looked at the new forms, they don't seem too bad. They will undoubtedly take more time to advise on and prepare, so the costs will rise.

So best to act now, remember these documents do have important safeguards and you cannot make one when they are really needed. Prices do vary my firm in London charges £75 for both for a couple.

For couples that don't want their children involved, think of the following scenario. EPA in favour of each other. One dies, then surviving spouse loses mental capacity. The effect? The EPA is useless.

What I advise my clients (where they are insistant on spouse only to act), is give power to spouse solely, but if they're unable to act (i.e they're mentally incapable or they've died), then A is to act or A & B. Jointly = they must both agree (safer, but more hassle) or jointly and severally (where either can act independently of the other - less hassle/not so safe). Therefore choose your attorneys with care.

Where there is a sole attorney and property is to be sold (with the other co-owner mentally incapacitated), then the way round it is for a second trustee to be appointed to receive the proceeds of sale. (A rule of property law.)

Most people are happy to go with an EPA once it has been explained properly, and most want the power postponed until such time that capacity has been lost (a simple restriction to enter on the form). Therefore it is viewed as an insurance policy that will never be required. Peace of mind for under a £100 - priceless.

I hope that explains. Anybody please feel free to pm me if you require any further help/advice.

margaretclare

localhero wrote: »

Margaretclare - you keep saying everything is automated, but have you considered the effect of one of you who let's say, has become incapacitated, suddenly comes into some money, by inheriting or let's say winning the lottery. How is that money used/spent? Would you want an outsider that you haven't chosen deciding for you? I know I wouldn't.

Extremely unlikely, given that neither of us does the lottery - we don't approve of gambling (Methodists, you see) and we are unlikely to inherit from anybody.

Our solicitor is the second attorney for both of us, we've set it up to only come into force when we lose mental capacity, it's 'jointly and severally' and the second attorney only gets involved if sale of house is on the cards. An outsider that we haven't chosen - no, we've chosen our solicitor for that reason.

I mention the 'automated' bit because for some people, spouse becomes incapable and they haven't even got access to funds for normal bills, to buy food etc. That won't happen with us.

Margaret

localhero

Ok Margaret, but you never know...perhaps god will be smiling on you when one of your friends leaves something to you in their will! :A

margaretclare

localhero wrote: »

Ok Margaret, but you never know...perhaps God will be smiling on you when one of your friends leaves something to you in their will! :A

It will be about as likely as our winning the lottery, which we never do, and on which the odds are several millions to one. However, stranger things have happened - it was highly unlikely that we would ever have found each other in the first place! But I shan't be holding my breath.

Margaret

margaretclare

Oh good Lord, yes, Don't we all - hope that never happens.

If someone had a stroke which was severe enough to require specialist equipment e.g. special beds to prevent pressure sores, hoists to move in and out of bed, then AFAIK that would be a nursing home as opposed to just a care home. Many people don't appreciate that there's a difference.

My first husband, for instance, started having strokes in the last few years of his life. Apart from having weakness on the left side, there was nothing much to show for it. Certainly, he never needed anything that could be called 'care'. OTOH people have had massive strokes and remained a vegetable for what remained of life (is Ariel Sharon, former Israel Prime Minister, still alive, does anyone know?) Or they can be like the former MP Tony Banks, and go quite quickly. I would prefer the latter, but we don't get what we'd prefer, do we?

All we can do is our best, iron out as many drawbacks as possible, but it's impossible to legislate for everything that might happen.

Did you know that people in care homes/residential homes/nursing homes are not covered by the Human Rights Act? They have no right whatsoever to protest about e.g. being dragged out of bed at an uncivilised hour, put to bed at tea-time, being dressed in clothes not their own, a whole raft of things. You cannot treat a convicted criminal like that! As in Brixton Prison, new toilet blocks are being built so that Muslim prisoners don't have to face Mecca while sitting on the loo. Farcical, but I read that only yesterday.

Margaret

Errata

sav4it wrote: »

Thank you for starting this thread Margaret.
OT I know but I couldn't agree with you more about wanting to stay in your own home and avoid care homes like the plague.I am in the process of researching funding options for someone in case it ever became a necessity. My biggest fear is if the home isn't adequate to accomodate specialist equipment after say a stroke which is why I'm looking into the possibility.How I hope that never happens.

It's always a good idea to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Someone with serious mobility problems won't be accepted by a residential home and will need to be placed in a nursing home, or dual registered residential and nursing home, which will have all the equipment standards. HTH

margaretclare

Hi

To handle any form of medication, you need to have a Registered Nurse on the premises 24/7. A 'care home' wouldn't have this requirement AFAIK. But certainly, one in which morphine was being used, you'd have to have an RN on the premises, with keys kept on his/her person.

Margaret