Parking Eye - Service Station

Guys_Dad

weary_driver wrote: »

Thanks, I'll take that into account regarding personalising the appeal.

Guys Dad, I've had a look over the thread and posts you suggested, just to confirm are you suggesting I add a line to points 3-5 insisting the evidence provided by them needs to originate from the landowner?

Yes. Pre-empt them supplying a witness statement by referring POPLA their misuse of the statement and you would only accept witness statement if landowner on headed paper confirmed their right to pursue charges and that landowner witness has had full sight of contract.

zzzLazyDaisy

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Yes. Pre-empt them supplying a witness statement by referring POPLA their misuse of the statement and you would only accept witness statement if landowner on headed paper confirmed their right to pursue charges and that landowner witness has had full sight of contract.

I have the opposite view (but I hasten to add, that doesn't make me right, just that I favour a different tack).

Personally I would not mention the witness statement thing at all at this stage, I would just go down the old 'I want to see the contract' route. Same thing at POPLA appeal stage. Then I'd wait until I got the pack of bumph during the course of the POPLA appeal, fish out the witness statement and then send a follow up letter to POPLA pointing out all that is wrong with the statement and how it does not stand up as evidence that they have the right to levy a charge and issue proceedings (note BPA CoP says the contract must authorise them to do both) and repeat that POPLA must see the contract. Otherwise you are telling them what you will accept and if some innovative person copies the landowner's letterhead and lies through their teeth (not saying they would of course) you have lost an opportunity to rubbish their evidence.

weary_driver

Revised points 3 to 5:

3. I do not believe that the operator has demonstrated a proprietary interest in the land, because they have no legal possession which would give ParkingEye Ltd any right to offer parking spaces, let alone allege a contract with third party customers of the lawful owner/occupiers. In addition, ParkingEye Ltd's lack of title in this land means they have no legal standing to allege trespass or loss, if that is the basis of your charge? Should ParkingEye Ltd provide proof in the form of a Witness Statement, it should be noted the Witness Statement is adequate evidence only if provided by the lawful owner on headed paper, confirming the right of ParkingEye Ltd allege trespass or loss, or allege a contract with third party customers of the lawful owners/occupiers, and the landowner witness has had full sight of the contract.
I’m happy to let POPLA adjudicate on this should you decline my appeal.

4. I contend that ParkingEye Ltd are only an agent working for the owner and their signs do not help them to form a contract without any consideration capable of being offered. VCS -v- HMRC 2012 is the binding decision in the Upper Chamber which covers this issue with compelling statements of fact about this sort of business model. Should ParkingEye Ltd provide proof in the form of a Witness Statement, it should be noted the Witness Statement is adequate evidence only if provided by the landowner on headed paper and the landowner witness has had full sight of the contract. I’m happy to let POPLA adjudicate on this should you decline my appeal and would expect ParkingEye Ltd to provide evidence to the contrary.

5. I believe there is no contract with the landowner/occupier that entitles them to levy these charges and therefore has no authority to issue parking charge notices (PCNs). This being the case, the burden of proof shifts to ParkingEye Ltd. Should ParkingEye Ltd provide proof in the form of a Witness Statement, it should be noted the Witness Statement is adequate evidence only if provided by the landowner on headed paper confirming the right of ParkingEye Ltd to pursue charges and the landowner witness has had full sight of the contract. I’m happy for POPLA to adjudicate on this matter should you decline my appeal.

weary_driver

And the revised, personalised opening paragraphs is below. I'll review tomorrow for any further feedback, and will hopefully be sending this initial strong appeal to PE on this later in the day.


Dear Sir / Madam,

I wish to appeal the above referenced PCN, and have detailed the grounds of the appeal below. In addition, to add some context, I have also first included a brief account of the time spent in the Service Area.

On the day in question upon returning from an early flight into Birmingham, we were returning home to Scotland. Having driven for an hour or 2, the driver pulled off for a break into the Motorway Service Area for safety reasons. The driver did not notice the signs stating the 2 hour limit when pulling into the service station. After driving round the parking area, and selecting an appropriate space, the car was parked, the driver rested for for approximately 1 hour, then went into the the retail area, bought a coffee from Starbucks, then some bottles of juice, chocolate and snacks from WH Smith and returned to the car (please see the attached credit card statements with the transactions highlighted).

The passenger then went into the retail area to also get a coffee, and use the bathroom separately (the children were asleep in the car, hence separate visits to the retail area).

The grounds for my appeal are detailed below. If you are unwilling to accept the grounds of my appeal, then I require, in accordance with the BPA and POFA regulations, a POPLA code in order for me to take my appeal to POPLA.!

If, on the other hand, after consideration, you decide to cancel the charge, please feel free to do so.

I wish to appeal on the following grounds:

weary_driver

Ah I've just seen the reply from zzzLazyDaisy regarding the Witness Statement. On reflection I think I may be inclined to follow that approach, but I'll review again on Monday and re-edit my first appeal before submitting.

Appreciate all the help here.

zzzLazyDaisy

Before for you go any further - do you live in scotland?

If so advice is still 'ignore' even if the parking event was in England, because PoFA does not apply in Scotland

Stroma did a neat easy explanation on another case - I'll see if I can find it ....

EDIT - here it is

"The Scotland thing is number of things, first and foremost Keeper liability and pofa 2012 is not enforced in Scotland, so it cannot be used in the sherrifs court. Also as they issue a fake ticket under pofa 2012 and in a different jurisdiction to the sherrifs court, I doubt if they will consider something out of area."

Also MCOL (the online issuing service) won't accept a claim against a defendant with an address outside the jurisdiction (ie Scotland) so if they wanted to issue proceedings against you, they'd have to do it the old fashioned paper way. With all the other hoops they have to jump through you are at very low risk of anything happening.

weary_driver wrote: »

And the revised, personalised opening paragraphs is below. I'll review tomorrow for any further feedback, and will hopefully be sending this initial strong appeal to PE on this later in the day.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear - it's late - what I meant was, you need to tie in what happened to your appeal - see my comments in blue below


Dear Sir / Madam,

I wish to appeal the above referenced PCN, and have detailed the grounds of the appeal below:

On the day in question upon returning from an early flight into Birmingham, we were returning home to Scotland. Having driven for an hour or 2, the driver pulled off for a break into the Motorway Service Area for safety reasons. The driver did not [STRIKE]notice[/STRIKE] see the signs stating the 2 hour limit when pulling into the service station.

The law requires that a motorway service area must allow two hours parking for a rest break. This does not include driving around the car park looking for a space, filling up with fuel or checking air in the tyres. However the anpr cameras only logged the vehicle's entry and exit and do not make any distinction between the actual time that we were parked and the time taken driving around the car park, getting fuel etc


After driving round the parking area, and selecting an appropriate space, the car was parked, the driver rested for for approximately 1 hour, then went into the the retail area, bought a coffee from Starbucks, then some bottles of juice, chocolate and snacks from WH Smith and returned to the car (please see the attached credit card statements with the transactions highlighted). [STRIKE]The passenger then went into the retail area to also get a coffee, and use the bathroom separately (the children were asleep in the car, hence separate visits to the retail area).
[/STRIKE]

Did you call in for fuel on the way out? This would have extended time on the service area which does not count for parking purposes



[STRIKE]The grounds for my appeal are detailed below.[/STRIKE]

Put this bit at the end of the letter or else it will get lost

If you are unwilling to accept the grounds of my appeal, then I require, in accordance with the BPA and POFA regulations, a POPLA code in order for me to take my appeal to POPLA.!

If, on the other hand, after consideration, you decide to cancel the charge, please feel free to do so.

[STRIKE]I wish to appeal on the following grounds:[/STRIKE]

Guys_Dad

weary_driver wrote: »

Ah I've just seen the reply from zzzLazyDaisy regarding the Witness Statement. On reflection I think I may be inclined to follow that approach, but I'll review again on Monday and re-edit my first appeal before submitting.

Appreciate all the help here.

Yes, that is on balance a better way to approach this. As long as you are aware of the potential problem and remember to address it.

Stroma

I really don't see why you are going to the trouble on this, you are in Scotland popla is out of area as they shouldn't hear cases not in England or Wales . And have a look at this thread on parking eye issuing on a resident in Scotland, they I believe are trying to use pofa 2012 even though it doesn't apply there

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?396781-Re-Another-Parking-Eye-amp-Debt-Recovery-Plus-Ltd-SCOTLAND

weary_driver

Ok, apologies, I've become a little confused on what the general advice was. While I read through all of the points about POFA 2012 and Scotland, I got the impression it was still worth trying to shortcut the process and try to get it thrown out by appeal instead of waiting and not being 100% whether it would be enforceable should they decide to take it to the county court (with a CCJ being recognised UK wide).

To confirm, I am resident in Scotland, and that is where the car is registered.

So to clarify, it's the general opinion that ignoring instead of any appeal is the best route on the basis I'm resident in Scotland? Then if and when PE take it further and try to enforce via court proceedings, I would report back here for further advice? I'm sure you understand I'm just trying to get my head round all of this (and want it to go away asap), it's not an area I'd fortunately had to look into before, but very much appreciate having this group to put my queries to!

Thanks!

Iceweasel

weary_driver wrote: »

Ok, apologies, I've become a little confused on what the general advice was. While I read through all of the points about POFA 2012 and Scotland, I got the impression it was still worth trying to shortcut the process and try to get it thrown out by appeal instead of waiting and not being 100% whether it would be enforceable should they decide to take it to the county court (with a CCJ being recognised UK wide).

To confirm, I am resident in Scotland, and that is where the car is registered.

So to clarify, it's the general opinion that ignoring instead of any appeal is the best route on the basis I'm resident in Scotland? Then if and when PE take it further and try to enforce via court proceedings, I would report back here for further advice? I'm sure you understand I'm just trying to get my head round all of this (and want it to go away asap), it's not an area I'd fortunately had to look into before, but very much appreciate having this group to put my queries to!

Thanks!

I too am resident in Scotland and I get a few of these every year, due to taking a lengthy nap whilst heading North.

The best advise it to ignore everything and do not communicate with them in any shape or form at all.

Any invoice or claim regarding parking in a private car-park anywhere in the UK, but especially in England, is just dead in the water as they can do nothing whatsoever at all.

They usually give up after around 6 months.

My sister on the other hand got one of these from somewhere around the M25 and naievely entered into discussion with them offering mitigating circumstances, children sleeping and other logic which counted for nothing in the scammer's eyes

That dragged on for nearly a year.

So the quickest way to stop make this go away, short of paying their ransom money, is to ignore it.