Landlord taking deposit dispute to County Court

BobQ

MagnumBI wrote: »

Interesting, he does not appear to be in that list.

I received a response to my part 18 request today. The £1122.60 is made up as follows.

ITEM 1: 3 x Carpet Cleaning @ £30 per carpet totaling £90. They have apparently agreed after cleaning these carpets (which I admit, I did not do), they did not need replacing. Possibly the most reasonable I've seen this agency be, I'm quite surprised.

ITEM 2: 1 x Carpet to Lounge Replaced £357.60

ITEM 3: Repaint of whole apartment £375.00

ITEM 4: Supply and fit new freezer compartment door £90

ITEM 5: Repair damaged kitchen unit door £60

ITEM 6: Deep clean to whole property £150

Each item above is marked as invoice available.

So it appears the bulk of the costs are for the replacement of the lounge carpet, repainting and the "deep clean".

The freezer compartment door is for one of those mini freezers inside the refrigerator. I know of 3 other tenants who had theirs replaced while I was there. We had requested this in person near the start of our tenancy when it became loose, however as we had our own fridge/freezer, we didn't use it and didn't chase it up - my negligence.

The damaged kitchen unit door is a door that had entirely come off its hinge below the sink. Again, call it negligence on my part but as it was fine when it was closed and barely used, we never reported this or ever got this fixed.

I know we've all but established their unsigned inventory is useless but worth noting again, of the items above

ITEM 2: The lounge carpet (the one replaced) is present in the inventory but with its condition left blank.

ITEM 3: Of the walls in the property, all have their condition noted except for the kitchen, which is left blank.

Of ITEMS 4 and 5 the freezer and "kitchen units" are included broadly, with their condition marked "good."

I suppose my question is, what now? My thinking was to fire off a request specifically for those invoices.

What do you all think of those amounts and if I were to make a counter offer either as a (low) partial admittance on the court forms or directly to the landlord to appear reasonable, what would you suggest?

I will leave the experts to advise what to do but observe that even if you had invoices for all these items and they were in order, they show the work done not the work that you should pay for. The costs stated seem reasonable but why should you pay them is the issue.

For example as mentioned earlier a white carpet, used by a previous tenant as well, might be expected to last only 5 years. You should only pay for what is not fair wear and tear. There is no inventory you signed to support the condition of doors and freezer or the carpets they cleaned and even if there was this may be fair wear and tear. After 5 years the landlord should expect to re-decorate and should only charge you for unfair damage. For example if the bed had damaged the wall behind it, decorate the wall not the whole flat. The itemised list is still inadequate for these reasons.

Not sure if the cleaning is specified in your contract. But unless it is you can only be expected to return it in the same condition less fair wear and tear.

Personally I would ask for an itemised statement for what damage they were repairing and why they think its not fair wear and tear.

MagnumBI

Hello Again All,

Taking account the many useful replies thus far, I have decided to attempt a counter offer in writing. I think this would be a reasonable step to show an attempt at reconciliation. If they decline then I will re-iterate the same offer via the Courts (I still have more than 2 weeks).

My plan is to draft a letter mentioning the following

1. That they hadn't provided costs at any point until now
2. That they did not allow for the proper consultation through the agreed DPS Adjudication process
3. That Court action was launched without proper letter before action or notice (i.e. the 3 days notice they gave)
4. That the court forms seems to infer that they are the legal respresentative of my landlord, is that correct?

I will then make note that notwithstanding the above, they do not have a properly completed inventory, that is unsigned and missing items and that they have not applied apportionment to their costs.

I will then make offer of the following as a gesture of goodwill:

1. 107.38 for the replacement carpet. - Applying apportionment with a 5 year life span, the £357.60 carpet would equate to £71.52 per year. As my tenancy was 3.5 years, I offer 107.38 for the remaining 1.5.

2. 112.50 for the repainting. - Applying apportionment with a 5 year life span £375 worth of painting would equate to £75 per year.. As my tenancy was 3.5 years, I offer 112.50 for the remaining 1.5.

3. With regards to cleaning and deep cleaning, I will offer the full £90 for the cleaning of the carpets, and offer to split the cost of the deep clean and pay half, £75.

4. With regards to the Freezer Door and Kitchen unit door, I will refuse to pay as I believe they could have been dealt with during the tenancy.

That brings my offer of settlement to a total of £384.79.

Am I being too generous? As the landlord is trying to claim £1122.60, realistically for me, I'd count a win as being anything below my £450 deposit. If I were to trim the initial offer down, where would be reasonable to do it?

Finally, Is there anything I'm planning to mention, that I should not (i.e. that I should keep close to my chest until we go to court) or is there anything I'm missing?

mart.vader

MagnumBI wrote: »

Hello Again All,

Taking account the many useful replies thus far, I have decided to attempt a counter offer in writing. I think this would be a reasonable step to show an attempt at reconciliation. If they decline then I will re-iterate the same offer via the Courts (I still have more than 2 weeks).

My plan is to draft a letter mentioning the following

1. That they hadn't provided costs at any point until now
2. That they did not allow for the proper consolation (consultation ? ) through the agreed DPS Adjudication process
3. That Court action was launched without proper letter before action or notice (i.e. the 3 days notice they gave)
4. That the court forms seems to infer that they are the legal respresentative of my landlord, is that correct? ( I would wait until they get to court, - if they go ahead, and point this out to the Judge)

I will then make note that notwithstanding the above, they do not have a properly completed inventory, that is unsigned and missing items and that they have not applied apportionment to their costs.

I will then make offer of the following as a gesture of goodwill: (Mark the letter at the top "WITHOUT PREJUDICE")

1. 107.38 for the replacement carpet. - Applying apportionment with a 5 year life span, the £357.60 carpet would equate to £71.52 per year. As my tenancy was 3.5 years, I offer 107.38 for the remaining 1.5.

2. 112.50 for the repainting. - Applying apportionment with a 5 year life span £375 worth of painting would equate to £75 per year.. As my tenancy was 3.5 years, I offer 112.50 for the remaining 1.5.

3. With regards to cleaning and deep cleaning, I will offer the full £90 for the cleaning of the carpets, and offer to split the cost of the deep clean and pay half, £75.

4. With regards to the Freezer Door and Kitchen unit door, I will refuse to pay as I believe they could have been dealt with during the tenancy.

That brings my offer of settlement to a total of £384.79.

Am I being too generous? As the landlord is trying to claim £1122.60, realistically for me, I'd count a win as being anything below my £450 deposit. If I were to trim the initial offer down, where would be reasonable to do it?

Finally, Is there anything I'm planning to mention, that I should not (i.e. that I should keep close to my chest until we go to court) or is there anything I'm missing?

I think you're being too generous, but I can't see where to trim your offer.

angrypirate

Personally i think you are being way too generous as they dont have a signed inventory or any proof of the state of the property when you moved in.

If they are replacing the carpets why are you paying for a deep clean of the carpets?

If you decide to send this please ensure your offer is "without prejudice" and you include this on the letter. That way the court cannot use the letter as admission of guilt in court.

MagnumBI

Thank you both. Perhaps then I do not offer anything for the deep clean (referencing the replacement carpet, cleaning of the 3 other carpets and wholesale repainting they are already claiming for).

That would bring me down to £309.79 (unless my maths is as poor as my spelling).

angrypirate

MagnumBI wrote: »

Thank you both. Perhaps then I do not offer anything for the deep clean (referencing the replacement carpet, cleaning of the 3 other carpets and wholesale repainting they are already claiming for).

That would bring me down to £309.79 (unless my maths is as poor as my spelling).

Do you believe thats a fair and reasonable offer for the damage you caused (not the wear and tear)?

MagnumBI

If I can find a reasonable way to knock off a few more pounds, then maybe.

As many of you have helped me establish, with the wealth of evidence against them, the non-inventory and their lack of adherence to any reasonable protocol, they have a weak case from a legal point of view. I feel confident in the outcome of any appearance in court and believe that even in a worst case scenario, I wouldn't end up paying near their ridiculous amount quoted.

From a moral point of view though, if they'd quoted something in the this range from the start, I may have been willing to accept it as a somewhat reasonable summation of costs, I could have avoided the irritation of a day in court to plan for and we'd likely not be here having this discussion.

MagnumBI

Hi everyone, been a while since I’ve updated this thread as this thing went quiet for a while, but we’re back rolling.

To summarise where we were and where we are.

After a 3.5 year tenancy – my former Letting Agent on behalf of my landlord (or as my landlord depending on how they sign each document) wanted to claim £1122.60 from me for redecoration of an apartment I’d vacated which included:

£357.60 Full cost of replacing a white carpet
£90 cleaning costs for 3 other carpets in the apartment.
£150 for a “deep clean” of the apartment.
£375 for “full redecoration” of white walls.
£90 to replace a freezer door
£60 to repair a kitchen unit door

As I’ve said in this thread, they do not hold a signed inventory for these items– only an incomplete one without my signature on it.

I did decide to make a counter offer prior to it going to County Court. This ended up being £339.78 – Apportioning down to the remaining 1.5 years of a 5 year lifespan for the carpet and the paint job on the wall - and also including 50% of all of the cleaning costs they’d claimed. I refused to pay for the freezer door or the kitchen unit door as these were both faults during my tenancy and never fixed.

The Landlord rejected my offer, made no counter offer and we have now proceeded to Court Action, pending an upcoming court appointed telephone mediation appointment we have both agreed to.

When I sent back my court forms, I again offered the 339.78 as partial settlement. We will be in County Court at the end of January and as such the landlord has forwarded their evidence to me including *undated* photos of the carpets, walls etc from after I moved out and a witness statement which summarises their position as the following:

- That I was the first tenant to take over the property “4 weeks” following it’s build.
- That on hand over the property was in poor condition with it being evident no cleaning had been done in “quite some time”.
- That wear and tear/ apportionment does not count as if I had “undertaken basic cleaning” – no refurbishment would be necessary, therefore I should pay in full.
- That they have been “forced” to attend court as I disagree with this point of view.

They have neglected to include any quotation or invoice for work done.

I’m therefore now putting my witness statement together. Firstly, I will be finding proof that their “4 weeks after build” claim is utterly incorrect as I viewed the apartment longer than before that and there were other people living in the block another month or two before that at the very least.

Secondly, I’m firing off a Part 18 request for the dates they did periodic inspections of my apartment and copies of any reports from these inspections- as they were done quite regularly and the condition of the apartment was fine and it’s cleanliness was never commented upon by the LL/LA.

I’ll also be making clear they haven’t been forced to take this to court – I had requested adjudication with the Deposit Protection Scheme – the preferred out of court resolution – it is they who have refused this adjudication and brought me to court.

Any opinions on where I am now and my proposed next moves?

MagnumBI

One other thing worth noting- throughout this, I’ve been noting that the LA had not provided a full final balance of the amount claimed and I didn’t get it until I requested it via Part 18 request in July.

In their evidence pack though, the LA has provided a letter they claim to have sent me way back in April - which has the full final balance claimed on it. I’ve never seen this letter, nor another one in the pack dated a week later – also supposedly sent to me in April. These two letters are printed on plain paper and are the only 2 pieces of correspondence I’ve ever seen from this LA not printed on their headed paper, unsigned and without their logo on. They’ve either retrospectively created these, or just never printed and sent them.

Worth bringing up - or is it just going to be my word against theirs?

jamie11

(the carpet was white, after 3 and a half years it is genuinely in poor condition).

That must be one seriously stupid landlord to fit that colour!