Private PCN - no "observation time" just "issue time" - invalid?

jfinnie

I've had something stuck to my car while parked somewhere I hadn't noticed was under Private parking control. I was only there for 5 minutes, and it only lists an "issue" time. I thought you had to list an observation time too, to prove it was for a period of time as defined here:

"SCHEDULE 4 OF THE PROTECTION OF FREEDOMS ACT 2012 RECOVERY OF UNPAID PARKING CHARGES", Paragraph 7(2)a, stating that a notice to the driver should;

"specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it
was parked and the period of parking to which
the notice relates;"

In fact, the private parking companies own website has specimen notices with Time of Observation on it. The cynic in me would say they are omitting this as the spaces are near a fast food place so the most anyone would park there is probably 5 minutes.

I believe issue time is not a period of parking, so the notice would be invalid under the 2012 act for the purpose of recovery of unpaid parking charges. Agree/ disagree?

surfboy1

I think that a "grace period" is in the BPA CoP ?
I think this calls for a "soft" appeal to the PPC ,then a full POPLA appeal upon rejection!

jfinnie

I was thinking about that course of action; but I couldn't see which of the 4 grounds for appeal this would fall under for POPLA? You are right, there is talk about grace periods but only with relation to deciding if you want to park. I had parked, I'm not disputing that. I didn't see the signs as it is an area I've parked in lots before which has become monitored recently it seems, and the signs are pretty few, far between and high enough that you don't see them easily from within the vehicle.

surfboy1

" not liable for the parking charge "
That one should cover it!

Stroma

Pofa 2012 is only for England and Wales. Who was the parking company? Don't appeal until you've had the notice to keeper which must be with you between days 29-56 after the ticket. Also a grace period must be given under the bpa Code of Practice, 5 minutes is not reasonable to drive in, find a parking space , read the terms of parking and leave if you disagree with them.

The_Slithy_Tove

So many fake PCNs don't show the period of parking, making them all non-conformant as far as POFA is concerned. Does it mention POFA?

It's just one of your POPLA appeal points (when it gets there) along with grace periods and all the other usual points which are covered endlessly on this forum.

BTW, was the fake PCN issued following ANPR time int/time out, or was there a ticket on the car?

Buzby

You seem to be crediting them as an authority in the matter of private parking and looking for loopholes to support you extrication. Why? POPLA remains a (mostly) irrelevant sideshow to assist in the 'front' that PPC invoices are both lawful and enforceable.

If you knowingly parked incorrectly and broke the terms, you have a moral right to pay. However, if like 99.9% of parkers the first time you knew there was a problem was a notice through the post (or rarely, placed on your vehicle) then you have an absolute defence of repudiation due to no valid contract being formed.

Continuing correspondence is wasteful of resources as the letter chain will continue regardless, as that is what the business model demands. You simply file away and marvel at the psycho-babble aimed a wearing you down.

Guys_Dad

Buzby wrote: »

You seem to be crediting them as an authority in the matter of private parking and looking for loopholes to support you extrication. Why? POPLA remains a (mostly) irrelevant sideshow to assist in the 'front' that PPC invoices are both lawful and enforceable.

If you knowingly parked incorrectly and broke the terms, you have a moral right to pay. However, if like 99.9% of parkers the first time you knew there was a problem was a notice through the post (or rarely, placed on your vehicle) then you have an absolute defence of repudiation due to no valid contract being formed.

Continuing correspondence is wasteful of resources as the letter chain will continue regardless, as that is what the business model demands. You simply file away and marvel at the psycho-babble aimed a wearing you down.

Well, although it was not likely to be Parking Eye, I am not sure that your view would be supported by the plethora of motorists who have now had court papers for ignoring them.

Also, the sticky thread on POPLA Decisions would tend to suggest that you are incorrect in your advice. I would not consider the published figures on POPLA's web site of appeals won to be an irrelevant sideshow.

• No cost to the motorist.
• Free rehearsal of any appeal points you might use if taken to court.
• No wasted time attending court.
• Proven success using appeal points from forum such as this.
• No sword of Damocles hanging over your head for months on end.
• PPC has to weigh up whether its a good use of time and money to take on a determined, forum-aided motorist or go for those who are ignoring instead.

Seems like a no brainer to me

jfinnie

Ticket on the car.

It is a row of parking infront of shops which are closed at night. I hadn't seen the signs; I've parked there for years and the signs are fairly new (Google Streetview shows no signs). I wouldn't knowingly park in front of such a sign. I can see now the signs are high enough that when you park the car up to the shop fronts that most of the sign is far out of view (you can only see the bottom few lines). I was a bit gutted when I saw the ticket; once I looked again I saw the signs when stood up around my head height. I certainly wouldn't park there again.

The operator are BPA Approved.

"Ticket" refers to POPLA within the "Appeals" process, but not to POFA. (Don't think that it needs to really, as POFA is law?)

Part of me wants to cost them money by making them pay for a POPLA appeal even though acknowledge all the arguments about POPLA's own authority.

jfinnie

The Govt's own guidance on POFA seems fairly clear that tickets must describe how and when, and separately list time of issue...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9155/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf

6.3 Schedule 4 sets out what a notice to the driver (ie a “ticket”)
must say. As a minimum the notice has to say: 
 * when and how the parking offence took place; 
 * how much is due; 
 * what any discount is for prompt payment of the charge; 
 * how and to whom payment may be made; 
 * the time and date when the notice was issued; and 
 * what the arrangements are for the resolution of disputes 
   or complaints - this includes any internal arrangements 
   offered by the parking operator as well as any independent 
   appeals process.

If this is quite common practice for such "tickets", seems like a lot of people have even more grounds for annulment, protected in law. This is very specific legislation.

bazster

It is indeed very, very specific. Virtually all notices issued are non-compliant.

What you need to do now is thus:

- Nothing. Wait for a Notice to Keeper to arrive in the post (this will almost certainly be non-compliant also)

- When the NtK arrives, get a "soft" appeal in to the company (plenty of examples on this forum, but ask for help if you need it; be very, very careful not to reveal that you were the driver)

- When they reject your "soft" appeal, put together a strong appeal to POPLA using all of the non-compliant points in both the Notice to Driver and Notice to Keeper and all of the other relevant points you find on this forum; do NOT admit to being the driver; post it up here to be reviewed before you send it.

- Sit back and enjoy the sense of satisfaction that comes from knowing that they have wasted £30 for nothing.

But for now, do nothing. Do not contact them, wait for them to write to you. And never, ever admit to being the driver.