Dream home has no building regs for loft conversion - please help!

housebuyer77_2

Hi

I am having a complete nightmare and would really appreciate any advice anyone can offer....

We recently found our dream home after searching for 6 months and a number of failed offers on other properties. The house was first marketed as a 4 bedroom detached house and then after 3 weeks reduced in price by 3%.

Whilst viewing with the agent and the vendor, he mentioned that the loft conversion (one of the bedrooms) did not have full sign off from building regs but was built to the required standard. He said the only reason it wasn't signed off was that he wanted to keep an open plan layout downstairs and building regs would have demanded he re-build a hallway. So he didn't do it and didn't get the final completion certificate.

At the time we didn't think too much of this, as he said he would be supplying an indemnity policy and the estate agent told us it was clearly safe to use as a bedroom as the standard of work was excellent (and it does look top notch).

The day after we saw it we were advised someone else had seen it and immediately put in a very good offer and we were asked for a 'full and final offer'. That gave us confidence the property must be sellable and desirable despite the regs issue, so we put in a good offer as it really is our dream house.

To cut a long story short our offer was rejected and the vendor went with the other buyer as they were a cash buyer, but as we loved the house so much I wrote a direct letter to the vendor offering slightly above guide and after some deliberations it was accepted subject to us proving our funds to the EA - yes, we gazumped the other buyer and apparently they were furious but we finally got the 'dream house'.

We went round to the house to meet the vendor again and he described how angry the other buyer was but that he was pleased that someone had recognised how much the house was really worth.

The vendor is a builder and did a lot of the work himself. There is solid slate flooring throughout the ground floor, a £13.5k aga cooker, log burning stove etc all included in sale. There is underfloor heating in all rooms, luxury bathrooms, open plan downstairs with bi-fold doors. It really is spectacular.

However since the second meeting we have spent time researching the loft conversion issue and it is only now that I can fully appreciate the seriousness of the dilemma. I understand indemnity only covers the legal aspect and not the quality of the work. The work looks top notch in all areas to me and it was done 8 years ago so plenty of time for structural problems to show.

I have raised concerns about the loft work to the vendor and he has sent me a whole load of plans and drawings including structural calculations. But he says he did not keep everything and there are no completion certificates for any of the work, no electrical safety certificate, no certificate for the brand new gas boiler, no certs for the double glazed sash windows in all the bays, nothing. It is also clear that his final build does not completely match the plans in all areas.

It has since been clarified that building control did come out to the site a number of times but when it became clear that he could not maintain his open plan layout downstairs he continued at risk at that point and did not get the completion certificate. But of course it is more serious than just the loft conversion, as the downstairs required knocking out load bearing walls, installing new RSJs - in short major structural changes. And none of that has completion certs either.

I was hoping a structural survey could give me peace of mind on the downstairs work, and I am aware that 8 years later enforcement is unlikely, but I am concerned about insurance for the loft room, as I was hoping to use it as an au pairs room or possible child's bedroom.

I have researched ways to achieve retro compliance and it would seem that there are now ways to achieve this whilst maintaining an open plan layout, by installing sprinklers or something called 'automist' downstairs and potentially a 'Viifire' fire curtain upstairs to achieve an escape route to the first floor window. But clearly that would cost a lot and my concern is whether there are other areas that also do not comply (e.g. there is a thin sliding door on the bathroom (room 2) in the loft as not enough space for a standard opening door).

So my dilemma is, we LOVE the house, we are WORRIED about re-sale in the future and whether by paying over the guide we are paying a far too price if the house should have been marketed as a 3 bed plus loft room. But the spec is just so out of this world there is nothing comparable on the market in the area.

I have challenged the EA and he says he was NOT aware of the lack of regs when first marketing the property but 'remains comfortable that it is a 4 bedroom house as it is clearly being used as such and the work was done to building reg standard just not signed off, and you have the indemnity insurance to rectify that problem'. Seems a bit dodgy to me and he is sticking to his guns, but how can I be sure that if the EA had known about the lack of regs he wouldn't have valued it a lot less? How can I get an opinion from another EA on this?

Appreciate this is a long thread and it is a difficult issue, but working on the basis that we still love the house do we (a) wait to see whether my mortgage valuation survey will value it as a 4 bed before deciding what to do (paying out £600 in val fee); (b) reduce my offer now on the basis that i may have paid far too much despite the amazing condition; (c) pull out completely saying it is just too difficult to proceed with all these issues.

Any advice appreciated as this is a real heart over head decision....

monty-doggy

Pay £600 for lender's val and see if they value it anywhere near £600k

I'm buying a house with a converted loft that's not to building regs. My surveyor said it can only be described as a loft room and not a fourth bedroom. I've not had any problems and completing in two weeks.

[Deleted User]

I'm also in the process of buying a flat with an unofficial loft conversion. I'm hoping I might be able to bring it up to standard to get building regs approval, but I'm not banking on it. I'm also slightly nervous about resale...

martinsurrey

Pull out completely and lose my 'dream house'.

Problem with option 1 is that the valuation might come back fine, but then once legal’s start and they request all the completion certificates for the work, and its not provided, the mortgage company pulls out, leaving you without the house, and a bill for fees and surveys.

The reason for the protected stairway is in case of fire.

So without it the work is NOT done to building standards, in a potentially fatal way.

The new boiler (which doesn’t have regs either!) starts a fire and the smoke and flames spread around the open plan, the kid in the loft can’t escape and dies, is it really a dream house?

There are elements of the reg’s that I often post about being trivial; Fire safety is NOT one of them. The only time you’ll realise how important they are is when someone’s dead.

mrsmchapman

Pull out completely and lose my 'dream house'.

There are no Certs for anything. So when you start the process and your solicitor requests all the Certs, he will probably advise against the sale that's if the mortgage company doesn't first. For a house re-done by a builder it certainly isn't someone i would want doing works to my house! I think you need to step back and look at it without the cosmetics! Would it still be your dream home should you have to make many changes! Also how would it affect insurance should a fire or flood etc happen?

hazyjo

Pull out completely and lose my 'dream house'.

Personally, I wouldn't believe a word I was told. How do you know the conversion was done properly apart from the lack of hallway? You're prepared to take someone's word for that (the vendor and the EA to boot!).

Ask them to sign a legal document saying that's all that was missing.

How do you know the floor was strengthened? How do you know the boiler was put in by a qualified gas engineer? How do you know the windows were fitted properly and aren't about to make the wall beneath collapse or, even worse, fall out if someone pushes on them?

There are way too may co*k-ups with this house for me to consider it. Could be a complete cowboy job for all you know. Just cos everything's glossy, shiny and new does not mean it was done properly.

An indemnity policy does not mean everything's safe! I had to have them on the windows and kitchen/diner in the house I've just bought, but that's a bit different to a loft conversion, and a house that's in the £600k-ish bracket.

I think you're being blinded by the finish. You could create that in another house.

Yes, you will have the same problems when it comes to selling.

Whatever they have or haven't done, the house is and always will be a 3 bed without the necessary sign-off (with 'handy boarded and decorated loft space').

Jx

ToasterScheme

Pull out completely and lose my 'dream house'.

The vendor is a twit - and an arrogant twit.

He seems to think he knows better than the people who design the building regs, and has decided to ignore the fire safety problems because he prefers not to compromise his design. So of course he has massively devalued the "apparent" value of his own house, and the work which he has put into it.
No-one can say "it's all to building regs except..." It's all or nothing.

Indemnity is probably next to useless. Sounds like building control already know about the project and already said they wouldn't sign off if builder continued with his non-compliant plans. This is different from doing it on the quiet.

housebuyer77_2

martinsurrey wrote: »

Problem with option 1 is that the valuation might come back fine, but then once legal’s start and they request all the completion certificates for the work, and its not provided, the mortgage company pulls out, leaving you without the house, and a bill for fees and surveys.

The reason for the protected stairway is in case of fire.

So without it the work is NOT done to building standards, in a potentially fatal way.

The new boiler (which doesn’t have regs either!) starts a fire and the smoke and flames spread around the open plan, the kid in the loft can’t escape and dies, is it really a dream house?

There are elements of the reg’s that I often post about being trivial; Fire safety is NOT one of them. The only time you’ll realise how important they are is when someone’s dead.

Hi martin, thanks for your views. I do feel nervous about the fire issue, but I am thinking that for £5k I could put in a sprinkler system in the open plan or something called 'automist':

http://www.plumis.co.uk/automist.html

This would give me peace of mind, even if I did not go for full regs compliance. But it seems this solution might allow you to maintain an open plan layout and achieve regs.....

If I cut my price by £10-20k to pay for such a system, and any other work required, I could then be left with a super house that does meet regs, or if not is at least safer than many domestic properties that have no water based safety system?

What do you think?

DannyboyMidlands

Pull out completely and lose my 'dream house'.

A chavy telly, aga and some bi-fold doors doesn't make a dream house in my opinion. I would suggest that you should actually be buying the fabric of the building rather than the finishes.

The refurbishment sounds like a complete botch job to me.

£200k for the work and another £100k profit and it doesn't even meet building regs? You must be having a laugh.

housebuyer77_2

ToasterScheme wrote: »

The vendor is a twit - and an arrogant twit.

He seems to think he knows better than the people who design the building regs, and has decided to ignore the fire safety problems because he prefers not to compromise his design. So of course he has massively devalued the "apparent" value of his own house, and the work which he has put into it.
No-one can say "it's all to building regs except..." It's all or nothing.

Indemnity is probably next to useless. Sounds like building control already know about the project and already said they wouldn't sign off if builder continued with his non-compliant plans. This is different from doing it on the quiet.

I do believe the vendor when he says that he has spent £200k and that all the work is top notch. Why would be cut corners in a house that was for him and his family? He also renovated other houses on this road as well but said this one didn't have a budget. The house does work very well with the open plan layout.

Maybe I ask him to sign a legal document and state exactly what items don't meet regs, as suggested by someone above?

If it cost me £20k to get the regs by installing some innovative products such as this:

http://www.plumis.co.uk/automist.html

and this

http://www.viifire.co.uk/

i could have a fantastic house and get regs sign off? I think with regs it would definitely be worth £600 so if I paid £580k would that not be a reasonable deal?

martinsurrey

Pull out completely and lose my 'dream house'.

That system is mains powered so if the power goes out, its useless, so its a no from me.

Traditional sprinklers need a lot of pipes and put out a huge amount of water, so its a no from me.

Plus I have NO idea how it would affect building and contents insurance, since one miss fire of it will ruin a lot of the very expensive features in your house (like every electrical and soft furnishing).

I think that in a traditional house, any water based fire suppressing system is asking for trouble, I wouldn’t touch one with a barge pole.