Thinking of Electric Car

Handsome90

redux wrote: »

This isn't too surprising, as a typical power station efficiency is about 28%, whereas the best diesels are around 45%, though you have to add distribution of the fuel in somewhere.

Do you have any proof for this statement?

redux

Handsome90 wrote: »

Do you have any proof for this statement?

Maybe my memory was slightly out of date by counting the older power stations

It seems typical coal power station efficiency is given nowadays as 33%

Lum

redux wrote: »

Agreed.

Apparently there are even schemes that give away the electricity for free, which is taking subsidy to ludicrous places, though one or two of them do cost a few quid (£20) a year to join.

How long do these schemes last for?

When the boss finally manages to stop me working from home, it's going to be costing me £200 a month in diesel, or £2400 a year for a 30 mile commute that is mostly motorway and A-roads.

A free electricity scheme would mean that an electric car would pay for itself in a little over five years, assuming the servicing etc. costs were identical, which they probably aren't.

I bet they don't last five years though. The schemes I mean, but maybe also the batteries, who knows?

redux

Lum wrote: »

How long do these schemes last for?

When the boss finally manages to stop me working from home, it's going to be costing me £200 a month in diesel, or £2400 a year for a 30 mile commute that is mostly motorway and A-roads.

A free electricity scheme would mean that an electric car would pay for itself in a little over five years, assuming the servicing etc. costs were identical, which they probably aren't.

I bet they don't last five years though. The schemes I mean, but maybe also the batteries, who knows?

I vaguely wondered about this a few weeks ago, and as one of the cars I saw for sale was in Northern Ireland and I'm in the south of England I spent a bit of idle time wondering how easy it would be to cover significant distances once or twice a year

I found this site, which seems to cover several schemes, possibly even all of them (I'm not sure about that, or how often updated)

http://www.zap-map.com/

If you select on a station, it gives details.

Some are main dealers devoted to only their brands, some council car parks, some hotels and restaurants etc (Little Chef was free until Dec, maybe still), some membership schemes with free or very cheap subscription for now, including at motorway services, a scheme or two for most of London, etc

If you scroll down in the pop-up box you get at each site, there is a link to the supplier website, for example:

http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-the-road

If you're already an Ecotricity customer – or become one in the next 12 months – the card is free for the indefinite future. If you're not an Ecotricity customer, you're still entitled to use our Electric Highway for the next 12 months. But after that we may charge you £10 a year, but not for the electricity you use.

https://www.sourcelondon.net/membership

Pay an annual fee of £10 for each vehicle (with no extra charge for the electricity you use)

There's another called Chargemaster, which may be a supplier of the charging kit but has its own network brand Polar, but I can't find the price details at the moment

I don't know where you are in Wales, but you can see it might be still a bit sparse there at the moment

Round here, one of the public car parks in the town 3 miles away has two charging stations. Charging free but pay for parking, but it might take 5 to 10 hours for a full charge, so I assume just a mild top-up while you're shopping or in the cinema. If electric cars suddenly get popular two chargers won't be enough ...

Lum

Pretty much nothing except in the middle of Cardiff, which is horrible to drive in at the best of times.

flyingscotno1

Lum wrote: »

I bet they don't last five years though. The schemes I mean, but maybe also the batteries, who knows?

Certainly hybrid batteries have proven to be fairly reliable by all accounts. Toyota will tell you they've had very few problems even in high mileage cars which still hold a good percentage of their charge.

I have got a hybrid which I got earlier in the year when I changed my car, which was a diesel. I thought the hybrid costs stacked up well with other 1 year old diesels available. My mileage varies on my journey types but typically the last tankful was 57mpg my diesel was usually around 48mpg. Not scientific though.

Lum

My point though was that even with totally free electricity and an otherwise expensive commute, you're still looking at a five year pay off before servicing costs are taken into account.

Once they start getting popular, these free schemes aren't going to last, it just isn't a sustainable business model, and the government will eventually start to miss all that lovely fuel duty.

One thing we do need to stop doing though is comparing car costs in MPG when MP£ is much more appropriate.

One point I do have to make in favour of electric cars though, even though right now they do just shift the pollution to another location, there are certain locations where this can still be a good thing. Beijing, for example, would be a much nicer place if everyone there used electric.

This is also the reason why we're stuck with catalytic converters, the emissions stopped by cats are quite horrible when they build up in the city. Luckily my de-catted car is rarely used in urban areas.

Ultrasonic

flyingscotno1 wrote: »

I have got a hybrid which I got earlier in the year when I changed my car, which was a diesel. I thought the hybrid costs stacked up well with other 1 year old diesels available. My mileage varies on my journey types but typically the last tankful was 57mpg my diesel was usually around 48mpg. Not scientific though.

To put those numbers in context, what hybrid do you have?

Ultrasonic

Lum wrote: »

One thing we do need to stop doing though is comparing car costs in MPG when MP£ is much more appropriate.

Very true. But sadly this is tough to do given the difficulty of accurately comparing running costs, especially depreciation.

Edit: Actually perhaps you were thinking of accounting for the extra 3.8% diesel currently costs over petrol? Also true but not a massive difference.

One point I do have to make in favour of electric cars though, even though right now they do just shift the pollution to another location, there are certain locations where this can still be a good thing. Beijing, for example, would be a much nicer place if everyone there used electric.

Absolutely agree. Driving in big cities is where electric cars do make sense. I can see an argument for subsidies for electric cars in such circumstances, but struggle more widely.

Lum

Ultrasonic wrote: »

Edit: Actually perhaps you were thinking of accounting for the extra 3.8% diesel currently costs over petrol? Also true but not a massive difference.

Diesel, Petrol, LPG, CNG, Electricity, Fuel Cell, paying some bloke to pull you around on a rick shaw.

Servicing, tyres and depreciation just complicate this further.

Absolutely agree. Driving in big cities is where electric cars do make sense. I can see an argument for subsidies for electric cars in such circumstances, but struggle more widely.

The real problem is that you're still going to need to own or hire a traditional car when you need to go further than the city.

My other concern right now is limiting charging points. I saw my first electric car charging point ever yesterday, at Michael Wood services on the M5. There where a whole two if them.

If your getting home depends on being able to charge, what do you do if two other people are using them.

This is much less of an issue for the hydrocarbon based cars as filling them up takes a few minutes, not a few hours, so 99% of the time it just means queueing a bit longer.

I'd be wanting a range that remains safely over double my commute distance even on a cold icy day.