Any experiences of Guardian Conservatory Roofs please?

pjb729

Having read through the HMRC documentation it does not appear that a reduced rate (5%) of VAT is applicable to Guardian Roofing

See HMRC-v-Pinevale-Ltd

Sorry can't post the link see later posting for more detail

pjb729

After reading through a number of HMRC documents it appears that the Guardian Roofing system may not be applicable for 5% VAT.

The case which set the rule is HMRC v PINEVALE LIMITED which went to appeal, although the ruling is for 'Supalite Roof's' the general precedent has been set for solid conservatory roof replacements.

This is a case about the liability of polycarbonate roof panels for conservatory roofs. The earlier First Tier Tribunal (FTT) had allowed the taxpayer’s appeal deciding the goods fell within the reduced rate for installed energy saving materials under Schedule 7A Group 2 as insulation for roofs in residential accommodation. HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) appealed.

Pinevale argued that the panels were insulation for roofs because they formed a barrier which prevented or reduced heat loss in winter and heat gain in summer. This meant a reduction in heating or air conditioning bills and therefore saving energy. HMRC argued that the panels were not insulation but they were the roof. The case hinges on the meaning of the word “for” in the phrase “insulation for roofs” and this is an interesting demonstration of how the Tribunals approach their analysis of the law. The FTT thought that “for” prescribed the purpose of the relief – so insulation for roofs was included in Note 1a, while (e.g.) insulation for doors was not.

The Upper Tribunal (UT) decided that the FTT had erred in its interpretation of Sch 7A Note 1(a). The UT concluded that “for” meant there had to be an existing roof that was insulated to make it energy efficient. Insulation for a roof is not the same as a roof. The relief presupposes that there is an existing energy inefficient roof, which is then insulated to make it energy efficient, and the supply and installation of the insulation is then reduced rate. These panels replaced all or part of the old roof and so were not insulation for roofs. Therefore the supply and installation of an energy saving roof does not qualify for the relief. Although the FTT made much of the fact that HMRC had not identified any energy saving products that could be attached to an existing roof to make it energy efficient (thus suggesting that the insulation for roofs part of the relief was meaningless if HMRC’s interpretation of it was right) the UT stated several such products are in fact available. HMRC’s appeal was allowed.

pjb729

A Guardian roof for a double Edwardian conservatory is about £10k

Furts

pjb729 wrote: »

A Guardian roof for a double Edwardian conservatory is about £10k

And your point is what?

Bear in mind this is a Money Saving Forum, coupled with homes and DIY.

With money saving in mind, £10000 is an extortionate rip off to "improve" the energy efficiency of a conservatory. To put a perspective on this, it would pay my total gas and electric bills for my entire home (not just the "conservatory part") for the next twenty years.

To put a different perspective on matters the largest complete conservatory (which of course includes the roof) available from Wickes is around £5000.

Savvy consumers do not burn £10000 on a Guardian Roof regardless of whether it does, or does not, have a VAT Rate set at 5%

pjb729

You have jumped to the conclusion that I am having the roof replaced purely for economic benefits which is not the case.

With a solid roof

The room is quieter
There is no glare through a solid roof like there is through poly carbonate
The rooms temperature is cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter which makes it more comfortable for my disabled wife.
My wife can sit and look at the birds and the wildlife in the garden

This is a Money Saving Forum, coupled with homes and DIY but not every derived benefit is Financial, whilst I am mindful of the cost of the roof my wife's comfort is primary consideration.

No one is forcing you to buy a roof, savvy consumers take a wider view of their purchases, not everything is about saving money it is about getting the best value.

Furts

pjb729 wrote: »

You have jumped to the conclusion that I am having the roof replaced purely for economic benefits which is not the case.

With a solid roof

The room is quieter
There is no glare through a solid roof like there is through poly carbonate
The rooms temperature is cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter which makes it more comfortable for my disabled wife.
My wife can sit and look at the birds and the wildlife in the garden

This is a Money Saving Forum, coupled with homes and DIY but not every derived benefit is Financial, whilst I am mindful of the cost of the roof my wife's comfort is primary consideration.

No one is forcing you to buy a roof, savvy consumers take a wider view of their purchases, not everything is about saving money it is about getting the best value.

What your reasoning overlooks is a replacement glazed roof will be quieter, will have reduced solar glare, will be more comfortable on temperatures, and will be cheaper.

I am happy for you to seek "best value" but I am aware of people who rue the day they had a Guardian style roof installed. Many people want the light levels, and the vista of the sky that comes with a conservatory. Spending an extortionate sum to remove this is not deemed "best value" by many consumers.

Davesnave

Furts wrote: »

I am happy for you to seek "best value" but I am aware of people who rue the day they had a Guardian style roof installed. Many people want the light levels, and the vista of the sky that comes with a conservatory. Spending an extortionate sum to remove this is not deemed "best value" by many consumers.

This is me in a nutshell. I have the ability to build a solid roofed garden room this summer, but I'm going with a conservatory, because it won't negatively impact the living room behind, which receives almost all its light from that direction.

MidlandAmigos

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Expect Polybear, the original thread poser, has already made the decision whether or not to take the plunge but felt we should share the experience of dealing directly with this company, irrespective of the VAT issue
Rarely have we come across a company that seemed more dedicated to customer satisfaction. Furthermore, if we saw a review like this on the company's own website, we may suspect a set up review. It was by pure accident we used Guardian Warm Roof for this installation. We had a poly-carbonate roof which had lasted well but was now brittle, cold and draughty. Our friend had told us about Guardian who manufacture the product to the required size, but omitted to inform us that a double glazing installer had actually done his installation work. We mistakenly contacted Guardian direct. It seems that there had been dissatisfied customers with installations completed by double glazing firms but representatives from Guardian suggest they will no longer supply to installers unless they themselves have trained them. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Initially we contacted the office, who gave a quotation based on our photos. There was no pestering or follow up contact. We expressed interest and the extremely helpful sales person, came all the way from Birmingham. He had no mission to make us sign up immediately. From the initial enquiry, no-one was pushy. Then a surveyor came to check the measurements and take a £1500 deposit. The installation was arranged earlier than we could have expected; the workers, both from the Czech Republic were second to none, almost grudgingly accepting a brief stop for coffee and refusing all attempts to be offered a gratuity at the completion. They had tirelessly sought an outlet for a sealing compound missing from the pre-loaded van. The installers had also come from the Birmingham area and were housed in a hotel locally for the duration; this may seem not cost effective, but we have no complaint – they were superb. Plasterers appeared on the Saturday at 0730 and worked through in the same fashion. We cannot fault any of the personnel at all; getting any of the installers to have a coffee was a struggle. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The company site manager contacted after the installation and was surprised we had paid the full bill immediately on completion when the work hadn't even been inspected by himself. We had meant to get a double glazing contractor for the task but mistakenly contacted Guardian directly. It was the most useful error to have made. Maybe we just got lucky but would describe this top quality operation as the “John Lewis of installers.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]This review is submitted in good faith and we are happy to answer any question. It was perhaps fortuitous that we had this good result as, at the same time, we had planned a new kitchen but were spectacularly let down in every aspect by a well known High Street installation company whose customer relations didn't appear to matter at all. After a host of failures on their part, they demanded £12,000 two weeks before a single cabinet was delivered because 'that's how all companies work'. When told of the Guardian method of business, they were incredulous. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]We paid less than £8,000 for the new roof; expensive perhaps but should last out our time. A local double glazing company had quoted only £500 less for a glass roof which would have had half the lifespan and hemorrhage heat at night and in winter. The solid roof made the difference overnight and whilst very satisfied with the product itself, we felt that the outstanding experience encountered with this company was quite extraordinary. We have no hesitation in recommending the company.[/FONT]

cyclonebri1

Might make a mug of myself here as I can't be assssed read all the forgoing, but, I built a Centurian conservatory about 4 years back now.
All supplied as a kit including roof to my fag packet drawing.

I can only say the price, quality and level of service were 2nd to none,

The only issue I had with Centurian was a simple plastic extrusion that was missing, they were 200miles from me, their supplier was 5 miles away, they arranged for me to pick up from the factory.

Now, I can't comment on their recent roofing system as they were changing suppliers at that time.

But the issue is a solid roof will be much heavier than the poly original. If it was originally glass you my be ok.

You absolutely have to talk to the conservatory supplier to ensure you don't create a jelly mould one hot July day.

Furts

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

Might make a mug of myself here as I can't be assssed read all the forgoing, but, I built a Centurian conservatory about 4 years back now.
All supplied as a kit including roof to my fag packet drawing.

I can only say the price, quality and level of service were 2nd to none,

The only issue I had with Centurian was a simple plastic extrusion that was missing, they were 200miles from me, their supplier was 5 miles away, they arranged for me to pick up from the factory.

Now, I can't comment on their recent roofing system as they were changing suppliers at that time.

But the issue is a solid roof will be much heavier than the poly original. If it was originally glass you my be ok.

You absolutely have to talk to the conservatory supplier to ensure you don't create a jelly mould one hot July day.

Bri is a wise fellow, and needs a pat on the back. I let MidlandAmigos post go by me shaking my head, with alarm bells ringing, but thinking, for many, ignorance is bliss.

There is a huge flaw here. The typical scenario is the original conservatory was a short life, flimsy, low cost construction, It was totally unregulated, it was not inspected, it was not controlled. It had a light weight poly carbonate roof, sitting on lightweight unreinforced window profiles.

Now somebody has plonked a heavy roof onto the conservatory - time will tell if stands muster. But bear in mind the original conservatory had a guarantee (hopefully). This could be 10 years. It is a certainty if anybody plonks a Guardian Roof on their conservatory within the guarantee period, the guarantee is automatically void.

I am pleased Midland Amigos is happy. I could not justify blowing £8000 on such a roof, but we all have different levels of disposable income.