What happens if you don't buy a ticket and aren't offered one by a guard?

WickedWolfie

Naf wrote: »

He should have either waited at his departure station to purchase a ticket, or actively gone to find the conductor to purchase a ticket. These are the two 'right' answers.

Most of the posters on the RailUK Forum who are experts would agree your first (not least because to fil to do so is a criminal offence) but absolutely disagree your second. Please enlighten me as to where the obligation to seek out a guard is set out?

WickedWolfie

rev_henry wrote: »

20 mins queue is way over the time that you can reasonably be expected to wait (passenger focus will have the exact details), so it was ok to board the train without, but he should have bought at destination.

Afraid not! Passengers Charter aspirations are not legal targets and as such do not exempt you from buying a ticket before boarding if facilities are available. Personally I think that is unfair but it is the case.

Naf

WickedWolfie wrote: »

Most of the posters on the RailUK Forum who are experts would agree your first (not least because to fil to do so is a criminal offence) but absolutely disagree your second. Please enlighten me as to where the obligation to seek out a guard is set out?

If it is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket for your journey (pretty sure that's laid out somewhere & indisputable) then you are obliged to either purchase one before boarding, or ensure you have one when you pass through the barriers at your destination. As none of the stations I am familiar with have any ticket dispensing facilities on the platform side of the barriers, if you don't get one on departure, you need to find the guard.

WickedWolfie

Naf wrote: »

If it is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket for your journey (pretty sure that's laid out somewhere & indisputable) then you are obliged to either purchase one before boarding, or ensure you have one when you pass through the barriers at your destination. As none of the stations I am familiar with have any ticket dispensing facilities on the platform side of the barriers, if you don't get one on departure, you need to find the guard.

Utter rubbish - please again justify!!! Try reading the NRCOC and stop quoting your own opinion. A passenger has a perfect right, if there are no ticket issuing facilities at his/her start point and the guard doesn't come around (the rail industry professionals on the forum I pointed you to previously state that revenue collection is NOT the guard's primary role and that if, for example, he/she is conducting a safety related function he/she will far from bless some blundering idiot trying to follow your half-baked advice) to buy at his/her destination.

Stigy

geordie_taxi wrote: »

u didnt say that in ur post. u stated

so following the national rail conditions of carriage and verified by stigy below in his post. i will go figure that it is perfectly legal to board a train travel to ur destination and pay for a ticket there. in theory ur journey was done without a ticket but was legal it only becomes illegal if u have the intent thereafter to avoid paying

Certain companies have a policy to buy on board as there are no ticket offices or tiçket vending machines at a lot of their stations. This would naturally make Byelaw 18 not applicable as advised in Byelae 18(3). The Conditions of carriage are not laws, and is a contract if you like. You couldn't use the Conditions of Carriage in a Magistraes' Court.

Naf

WickedWolfie wrote: »

Utter rubbish - please again justify!!! Try reading the NRCOC and stop quoting your own opinion. A passenger has a perfect right, if there are no ticket issuing facilities at his/her start point and the guard doesn't come around (the rail industry professionals on the forum I pointed you to previously state that revenue collection is NOT the guard's primary role and that if, for example, he/she is conducting a safety related function he/she will far from bless some blundering idiot trying to follow your half-baked advice) to buy at his/her destination.

If you're right, then why don't any stations have ticket machines on the platform side of the barrier?

Stigy

Naf wrote: »

If you're right, then why don't any stations have ticket machines on the platform side of the barrier?

I'm sure some probably do. For the most part though, it would defeat the object of the ticket barriers would it not? There are still Excess Fares Windows about I believe.

Stigy

geordie_taxi wrote: »

strange on the trains i traveled on quite recently the conductor was quite happy to sell tickets (off peak tickets) to passengers some who had boarded at stations with ticket offices but no barriers instead of prosecuting via a byelaw perhaps its good customer services or a commission thing



but they do spell it out when and where u buy tickets and when it is legal to board a train without a ticket im sure a court of law wud uphold it as evidence

Guards sell tickets because that's their role, as well as operating the doors of the train and other primary stuff. They are neither trained, nor expected to enforce Byelaws etc as it's not in their JD. They sell tickets be because its all they can do short of letting you travel free of charge...and they usually get sales commission.

I think you'll find the Magistrates won't recognise the NRCoC and will see the Byelaw as what they are. Strict liability. A matter won't make court if Byelaw 18(3) is evident, therefore it won't matter anyway.

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

Guards sell tickets because that's their role, as well as operating the doors of the train and other primary stuff. They are neither trained, nor expected to enforce Byelaws etc as it's not in their JD. They sell tickets be because its all they can do short of letting you travel free of charge...and they usually get sales commission.

they also drink lots of tea and read the newspaper in the back of the train

Stigy wrote: »

I think you'll find the Magistrates won't recognise the NRCoC and will see the Byelaw as what they are. Strict liability. A matter won't make court if Byelaw 18(3) is evident, therefore it won't matter anyway.

its a bit naive to think that the NRCoC cant be use in a court of law they are on the whole the train companies operating policy and also any evidence presented to a magistrate has to be considered even in a strict liability offence

HappyMJ

yt83 wrote: »

If you get on the train at X without buying a ticket (due to queues). Then arrive at Y without a guard doing the round. Then if:

a) There are no barriers at Y, what do you do?

b) There are barriers at Y, what do you do?

I ask because my boyfriend recently got on a train without a ticket (queues were 20+ minutes long and the train was departing, so the guards opened the barriers and let everyone on). Then on the train, no guard came around. It was impossible to move an inch on the train apparently. Then at the station he got off at, he didn't have a ticket so jumped over the fence and walked off, which I guess is illegal. But it still raises the question of what he should have done?

A) You would attempt to purchase a ticket before leaving the station.

You gain the attention of a member of staff who are manning the barrier and attempt to purchase a ticket.

You don't need to queue for 20 minutes to buy a ticket. There is a reasonable time to wait and 20 minutes is too long. As he couldn't move on the train purchasing a ticket at the destination is fine.