You can cancel your Orange contract!

DamePeggy

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Thanks DP, thats very very helpful.

I dont suppose if you had 5 minutes, whether you would mind taking a quick glance over my CISAS response before I send it off?

No problem, PM it to me.

powerful_Rogue

DamePeggy wrote: »

No problem, PM it to me.

Thanks, just dropped you a PM

IanR2012

I thought subscribers to this thread may also be interested in this post I just put on the T-Mobile price rise thread.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=62921180&postcount=2046

It's a link to a Radio 4 You & Yours piece regarding a win at CISAS re. a Price Rise above inflation.

The difference being that in this case CISAS found that the % increase should be based upon the monthly payment, not the plan price pre-discount.

powerful_Rogue

Just had an adjudicator assigned to my partners case, and its a different one to the one DamePeggy and RandomCurve had. Be interesting to see his conclusion in 3 weeks!

ryan92

DamePeggy wrote: »

It doesn’t surprise me either.

I'd probably give it a go with CISAS now that they’ve broken off communication. I am assuming that you have emailed EE to tell them that you wish to cancel as they’ve changed your Ts&Cs (if not do this soon)...

I’d put it something like this:

• EE read you terms that didn't match yours.
• They confirmed that the new terms were applicable to you with the tweet – which pointed you to the new terms (which triggers the clauses in the contract – see post #108). If they had sent this in an email it would have been sufficent, a tweet should be no different – especially as their customer service email isn’t working and they push people to the @OrangeHelpers feed.
• The Ts&Cs matter as they give EE the right to choose from a wider range of stats for future price rises and introduce material detriment, which is harder for you to prove.
• Despite a direct request EE have failed to clarify which terms apply to you and have used concepts that only appear in the new terms in correspondence with you.
• You can put EE ‘to strict proof’ that this evidence (especially the tweet) is NOT sufficient to consider that your Ts&Cs have changed. If they cannot, you have every right to cancel. In my case EE ‘put me to strict proof’ that my Ts&Cs had changed, and I had no electroic/written evidence that they had. I think your case can reasonably be reversed – make them say why the tweet, accompanied by the phone calls etc. does not indicate that they have informed you of a change.

Even if CISAS accept their case, then you can still expect some compensation for breach of duty of care. They have had every opportunity to tell you the terms you are on, have hidden the old terms from view, and have refused to answer a perfectly reasonable request for clarification.

Just got back from a little break away and getting this sorted now! One of the bullet point you mention a Tweet ; which tweet was that? I had the terms confirmed over Orange Helpers on FB.

Do I basically summarise the above on the summary of complaint?

Thank you

RandomCurve

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Just had an adjudicator assigned to my partners case, and its a different one to the one DamePeggy and RandomCurve had. Be interesting to see his conclusion in 3 weeks!

Good Luck.

My son is still awaiting the Orange defence to his claim which was basically the same as mine. I'll let you know when that comes through - should be this week I think.

RandomCurve

ryan92 wrote: »

Just got back from a little break away and getting this sorted now! One of the bullet point you mention a Tweet ; which tweet was that? I had the terms confirmed over Orange Helpers on FB.

Do I basically summarise the above on the summary of complaint?

Thank you

From my dealings with Orange and T-Mobile they will produce a schedule in their defence documents showing that their billing system shows which T&Cs they believe you are on - the adjudicator will take that at face value unless you have a concrete case (which it seems quoting the wrong T&Cs in their replies to you is NOT evidence enough), and that system will show the original T&Cs.

When putting your case together also put is a "second point" that the Price rise clause was not "CLEARLY and ADEQUATELY" drawn to your attention at the point of sale and that the price rise clause is hidden. Below is the claim on this point that we have put in for my son - it is very much based on the my winning case where the price rise was deemed as unenforceable (can't cancel the contract - but Orange can't increase the price either!).


Second claim points:

Any price rise term in a contract can only be fair and enforceable providedthe details are clearly and adequately drawn to the consumer's attention.

The price rise T&C is unfair and unenforceable as per the OFT guidance endorsed by ofcom. It is not sufficient that the clause is in the T&Cs which I have been deemed to have read, Orange are required to ensurethat the price rise term is clearly and adequately drawn to my attention and I put Orange to strict evidence that the term was clearly and adequately drawn to my attention.

OFTguidance, relating to price variation clauses, states:


12.4 A degree of flexibilityin pricing may be achieved fairly in the following ways.

• Where the level and timingof any price increases are specified (within narrow limits if not precisely) they effectively form part of the agreed price. As such they are acceptable, provided the details are clearly and adequately drawn to the consumer's attention.


Evidence that Orangehave not complied with OFT guidance:

a. Orange at NO point made specific reference to the price rise clause in the T&Cs during the sales process,

b. The price rise clause is buried on page 5 of 12

c. The text is not:

a. bold or

b. highlighted or

c. bigger or

d. Different in any way to any other clause

d. A copy of the contract was not sent to me with the phone

e. All adverts included the monthly price below/next to all of the fixed elements of the contract; this is mis leading (be it deliberately or otherwise).

f. Ofcom themselves have recognised in their consultation on price rises clauses that terms are not transparent in the contracts

g. The price never said “initial” or “subject to change” etc

h. Recently broadcast general evidence (BBC Watchdog programmes) that Orange do not disclose that contracts contain a price rise clause even when asked the question directly.

i. As per other mis selling scandals (Endowment policies/PPI) the onus is upon the seller to prove that the relevant clause was clearly and adequately drawn to the customers’ attention.


Since receiving the price rise letter I have examined theTerms and conditions (which incidentally were never sent to me, and are impossible to find on the internet – it is only because another customer hadprinted a copy from the internet before Orange removed them that I even know what the T&Cs are) and I contend that the price rise clause is indeed “hidden” as follows:

The price rise clause is on page 5 of 12 of the T&Cs and is under a highlighted heading (as are all T&Cs are grouped under various highlighted headings) as follows “Terminating Your Contract Because Orange Has Changed its Terms”. This heading clearly indicates it is about MY RIGHTS as a consumer – not Orange’srights to increase prices, yet this is where EE has hidden EE’s RIGHT (subject to qualifying parameters) to increases prices. This is further compounded by a diversionary tactic for anybody “skimming” the contract as there is another cluster of headings highlighted with the heading:

“we reserve the right to make changes to your Contract”

and this is where I would have expected a price rise clause to be, and indeed it does say:

15.1 (a) When …….



(b) We acknowledge that if we do increase the Charges, withdraw Orange Additional Services or introduce new mandatory Charges- or if your contractual rights are affected to your detriment - you may terminate your Contract in accordance with Condition 4.3. If you do not give notice within one month of our notifying you of any change(s), you will betaken to have accepted the change(s).


As clause 15.1 b has no qualifier as to the circumstances in which EE can increases prices it clearly gives the impression that ANY increase in prices (as only has to be to my detriment) would allow a penalty free termination, and therefore I have no reason to read clause 4.3 unless Orange actually increase their prices to ascertain where I need to send my cancellation notice.

DamePeggy

ryan92 wrote: »

Just got back from a little break away and getting this sorted now! One of the bullet point you mention a Tweet ; which tweet was that? I had the terms confirmed over Orange Helpers on FB.

Do I basically summarise the above on the summary of complaint?

Thank you

I've been away for a while too, so this may be too late now. Sorry, I mentioned the tweet as I think I c confused you with someone else who had the link tweeted to them. The Facebook message should be equivalent - it's certainly an electronic means which should trigger the clauses (see #108). It would be worth pointing out that their email account has been deactivated for months now, so you have to resort to this kind of interaction (as it's recommnded in the response you get to the inactive email address).

DamePeggy

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Just had an adjudicator assigned to my partners case, and its a different one to the one DamePeggy and RandomCurve had. Be interesting to see his conclusion in 3 weeks!

Glad to hear you've got a different adjudicator - let's see how they interpret the relevance of the 'intention of the parties'.

RandomCurve

My sons Orange defence arrived, it is basically a "Cut & paste" from the defences we have seen before.

There is one additional paragraph that attempts to say that they did not mis-sell the contract because the price prevailing at the time was clearly highlighted, but I don't think that will hold much water as the law is clear that they must highlight that the price is variable, so I can actually use their own defence against them

I'll keep you posted.