Bitcoins

csm888

DominicJ wrote: »

CSM
Grain has a value, because someone can eat it
Sterling has a value, because you can pay taxes with it
Bitcoin has a value because? Its rare? So's my fecal matter.

You can either respond to what I say or we just end up talking 'at' each other instead of 'to' each other.

I said, it has value because it is a technological invention, that solves a problem.
It also has value because people believe it has value.

sabretoothtigger

Reality is arbitrary, perception is reality

Grain can go off, it can be worthless
Sterling is a promise and hope on paper, it can be worthless
Gold is valued for 'pretty' and 'rare', mostly its alot of trouble not much use
Bitcoin can be worthless and its worth is its ease of transmission globally

Peter Schiff who called the housing and tech bubbles says similar of bitcoin. His main objection is no intrisic value, much like fiat currency. One point he did make was its price(success) is derived from its velocity where as gold as we know is often stored for decades so I guess its a polar opposite

padington wrote: »

What's the best exchange to use, can kraken.com be trusted ?

Never heard of them. I have used https://www.virwox.com but they are not the cheapest and they have minimum fees that are irritating to use but in theory they are quick to sell BTC for cash.
Localbitcoins might be cheapest, quality relys on its dealers though

[Deleted User]

DominicJ wrote: »

CSM
Works fine, until you cant find a bigger idiot, and you hold a $900 list of 0's and 1's.

You're completely off base. The fiat in your bank account is just 1s and 0s. That £1000 you hypothetically deposited into your account today doesn't really exist any more, all you have is a promise from your bank that they'll give you that £1,000 worth of transactions when you request it. Yes it's probably insured (depending on how much is in your account) but right now if your bank fails and the government decides not to honour its promises... your money is gone forever. You trust the bank and you trust the government.

The money in my current account is 1s and 0s. The money in my savings account is 1s and 0s. The money in my pension is 1s and 0s. The money in my Bitcoin wallet is 1s and 0s.

There are so many valid considerations when it comes to the long term viability of Bitcoin as a currency, but making blanket statements about Bitcoins "value" is ridiculous. Saying that a bitcoin is worthless because it's not something you can hold or because it's not rare is nonsensical, it's as nonsensical as the people claiming that a bitcoin will be worth millions.

The value an individual bitcoin holds is related to its presence in the Bitcoin network. If you want to argue about the value of an individual bitcoin then focus on the network, focus on the protocol, focus on the potential for Bitcoin to become a bona fide financial system. Focus on facts.

If you are sceptical about Bitcoin, good, if you don't think it's going to succeed, fine, but stop focusing on stupid micro elements that are so totally meaningless in the grand scheme of things that you're just wasting your own time arguing about them. Why not spend some time learning about Bitcoin and then spend your time discussing the realities? If you learn about Bitcoin and then decide "actually, I don't think Bitcoin can succeed because of the way the financial system works and how people expect their money to work" then fine, there's discussion to be had there, but "Bitcoin is stupid because it's just 1s and 0s" is nothing that can be discussed because it's just... pointless. vapid.

The entire worlds financial system is built on trust, you trust that a company will accept your sterling and that is why you are happy to be paid in sterling. You trust that the government won't cause you financial harm by printing so much money that they cause rapid inflation and devalue everything you own. That's not an absolute certainty, look at what happened in Zimbabwe. You trust that the government won't do that to you (which is fair, I trust the UK government not to devalue sterling too) so why is it suddenly impossible to trust the Bitcoin network too? If you have a reason, please share it, maybe there can be a valuable discussion had.

The entire financial world is built on trust, Bitcoin doesn't change that. Bitcoin changes that instead of being controlled by individuals, it's controlled by everyone that chooses to partake in the network.

padington wrote: »

What's the best exchange to use, can kraken.com be trusted ?

They are trustworthy and a well managed company but their volume is too low for large scale trading. If you're looking to buy/sell <10 - 50 BTC they should be fine.

I really enjoyed Bitstamp (although I've only ever bought) and I've seen very good things about Bitstamp. They're EU based so for £20 you can transfer money in and if the banks are open the same day you'll get the money into your account in under a day. They had some stability issues yesterday but every high volume exchange does.

Just as long as you steer clear from mtgox you should be alright.

JohnRo

You're completely off base.

Yeah but hysterical nonsense is so much more fun and plays perfectly to the peanut gallery.

paddyrg

BoracicLint wrote: »

Yes of course, but it was Marconi's aggressive telecoms asset purchasing and lack of diversification that saw it fall from grace. I don't see the correlation with the valuation of Bitcoin. I'm by no means suggesting that anyone invest any serious capital into Bitcoin, but there is some serious value in the technology if you investigate it's potential.

I understand that you were trying to say that people value intangible, unpeggable speculation vehicles differently. I just think you chose poor comparisons, the $3Bn 'valuation' of snapchat is clearly as insane as the first dotcom frenzy.

The technology behind it is mediocre, far from unique, bypassable and the platform itself is largely used by teenage kids for nude selfies (prey much how it was promoted) so the potential for abuse is staggering, and they have at any moment a server full of low quality low grade kiddy !!!!!! (following home office grading levels). Indeed 10 Canadian kids are facing charges now on charges related to just that. So, a damaged brand for a technologically weak app product whose only value is illicit bordering illegal, is that 'worth' $3Bn? Is that 'worth' 3 instagrams? 2/3rds of a Royal Mail?

Personally, I find bitcoin mathematically interesting, but believe that in the messy analogue world we live in it is not the utopia it is being touted as. The fact that the price is so volatile and that it is being ramped and talked up so much makes me feel it is closer to any other speculative bubble than many wish to consider. Comparing it to overheated IPO's may well be accurate, but for all the opposite reasons than I think you intended.

csm888

paddyrg wrote: »

Personally, I find bitcoin mathematically interesting, but believe that in the messy analogue world we live in it is not the utopia it is being touted as.

Why, please point out some significant failing?

I accept the speculation element is subjective and everyone is unlikely to come to a consensus, but why, as a technology does it fail?

BoracicLint

Bitcoin price currently £414 per coin.

Volatility aside, you can't deny there is plenty of support propping up the value, namely from China which accounts for 50% of all trading volume.

Everyday you can read about the increasing number of vendors who are accepting Bitcoins, from pizza parlours to coffee shops to travel agencies, The University of Nicosia in Cyprus is now accepting Bitcoin for tuition fees too!

As useability and acceptance increases, much of the volatility will subside. You can also now short trade on Bitcoin through a number of CFDs which should promote liquidity and stability further.

Marazan

csm888 wrote: »

Why, please point out some significant failing?

I accept the speculation element is subjective and everyone is unlikely to come to a consensus, but why, as a technology does it fail?

Because pretty much any western government, or China or Russia could sink it right this second by building their own super computer cluster. BANG. Done. Bitcoin sunk.

It is techno-utopian bull relying entirely on the kindness of strangers.

DominicJ_2

I can only repeat,
Sterling has value, because the Government accepts it as payment of taxes. Once the British Government refuses to accept the ten pound note in payment of taxes, it is worthless.

Thats where the value of Sterling comes from, the British Government stands behind it. Once the Government stops standing behind it, worthless.

BitCoins?
Strip away the "secret" and "safe" aspects, because they arent limited to BitCoins and the same system could be applied to BitPounds and BitDollars.
Who stands behind BitCoins and says I will accept these?
What entity can, in theory buy back every bit coin?

You've replaced the full faith and credit of a national government with vague promises of Dave the Drug Dealer!

You laugh at my bank account, a promise from Lloyds to give me my money back, but Bitcoins dont even come with that fig leaf!

csm888

I think the problem is that people think they need a central authority. They think without a government backing a currency, the currency will fail.
But a government IS the people, and bitcoin IS the people (or could be once it becomes more widely adopted), but without a central controlling authority.
The arguments that say 'nothing is backing it' fall over, because the same thing is backing fiat that is backing Bitcoin.... it's the people.

Its just that one has a central spokesperson and arbiter, the other is purely distributed.
Imagine you take the focussed power you see in our government and give it back to the people. The power (backing of money) is the same, its just in a different place.

Of course a western government could sink it, a western government could do most things. The question is will they? After the senate hearings it looks much less likely.