We need a new Support group descriptor.

Wicked_witch

I thought it would be interesting and educational (possibly just for me!) to have people with other disabilities add to the list (or remove things from it based on genuine knowledge, as Thomas Hardy did). I have a very intimate knowledge of the challenges faced by people with limited or zero sight as adults, but very little experience of any other type of disability.

I don't think disabled people comparing themselves to others is ever helpful. Everyone copes in different ways and has different reactions to their problems. While I'm sure we all agree that no one should spend all their time feeling sorry for themselves, the fact is that you don't know how much pain someone else is in, how much they can do or how much help they need even if you have the exact same condition at the exact same stage.

It is even less useful to compare a disabled person to someone else you know (or in many cases, occasionally see) with the same disability. We know someone who is completely blind and holds down a well paid and responsible desk job in central London. The difference between him and my husband, quite apart from factors like chance and intelligence, is that he was blind from birth and so went to a specially equipped school where he was taught by specialist teachers and received constant support. My husband went to a poor state school, where he was written off as thick and ignored, coming away with a few low grade cse's. We didn't find out until he was nearly 40 that he actually has very severe dyslexia as well as the visual problems, making the written word a totally closed book (lol) to him nowadays.

In many ways, my husband is luckier than our blind friend. He still has a small amount of useful vision, he knows what things look like from memory as his sight didn't start to really deteriorate until his late teens (though it was always well below average, he just assumed that was normal for everyone). But the fact remains that although he is not as 'bad' as this other man, he is completely unemployable while the other is far from it.

Wow, that turned out long considering my actual message was 'judgement is pointless, unkind and polarising.'

Wicked_witch

Okay, after receiving a surprising number of PMs agreeing with most or all of my OP, I've agreed to turn it into a petition, with suitable emendations. If anyone else has a constructive comment to add, either an addition to the descriptor/s or an educated objection to any of them (backed up with reliable sources and not just trolling or moaning about how lucky disabled people really are or telling us how your neighbour's friend is actually just a torso and still works 15 hour days so why should anyone else be allowed to do otherwise) now is your chance. I'll give it a week or so to see if there are further public suggestions, then draft something and post again for final comments and proof reading.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far, some of your words have been invaluable and inspiring

GlasweJen

Ok so being as constructive as I can be:

Wicked_witch wrote: »

a) Excessive sickness leave required
excessive sick leave simply indicates that the person is in the wrong job! Obviously anyone can fall ill but if we are talking long term problems then there is no reason why a disabled person should be absent significantly more than a non-disabled person.
b) Excessive leave for hospital or other necessary treatment that cannot be taken outside of working hours (since most treatment is unavoidably scheduled between 9-5, Monday to Friday)
not all jobs are mon-fri 9-5 though so if you know you need to be at the transplant clinic every other Tuesday afternoon then you negotiate that afternoon off as part of your employment package. Saturday is a normal working day in a lot of industries now so if you're willing to work the Saturday you should be able to negotiate the day you need off for the hospital. The less frequent appointments can be taken off as annual leave, using flexi or by swapping shifts.
c) Adjustments to the working environment which would cost an amount detrimental to the company, especially if the employer is a small business (apparently should not be an issue, thanks Thomas Hardy)
the DWP access to work scheme covers work place adaptions, support workers, interpreters and transport to work for any disabled person who can prove the support is needed.
d) Adjustments to the working environment that would be detrimental to the health and safety (and comfort?) of the other employees
i can't think of what these could be? Could an example be given?
e) Inability of the claimant to be flexible to the business's needs (eg, cannot work additional hours, have their schedule changed, have their place of work changed or work in a different capacity temporarily)
not all jobs require flexible working
f) Excessive cost for specialised equipment to enable the claimant to carry out their job satisfactorily (again thinking of small businesses)(apparently should not be an issue, thanks Thomas Hardy)
again access to work
If two or more of these apply, claimant should be placed in the support group.'

I don't see any government on the planet supporting this proposal when the A2W scheme exists and people are allowed to choose a career path. Disabled people can apply for any job that they wish to hold down.

Why not try instead of writing off a huge chunk of the population petition to introduce legislation to give disabled people a real equal opportunity work environment, extending to the recruitment process and training/promotion opportunities?

Wicked_witch

Sorry, double post.

Wicked_witch

Bearing in mind that the idea is to protect people who genuinely can't work, not to write people off- couldn't we do both?

a) Excessive sickness leave required
excessive sick leave simply indicates that the person is in the wrong job! Obviously anyone can fall ill but if we are talking long term problems then there is no reason why a disabled person should be absent significantly more than a non-disabled person.
What would be the right job though? If you get constant migraines, for example, there is no job you could do while ill.
b) Excessive leave for hospital or other necessary treatment that cannot be taken outside of working hours (since most treatment is unavoidably scheduled between 9-5, Monday to Friday)
not all jobs are mon-fri 9-5 though so if you know you need to be at the transplant clinic every other Tuesday afternoon then you negotiate that afternoon off as part of your employment package. Saturday is a normal working day in a lot of industries now so if you're willing to work the Saturday you should be able to negotiate the day you need off for the hospital. The less frequent appointments can be taken off as annual leave, using flexi or by swapping shifts.
True, but this obviously limits potential jobs to a huge degree, so how is that currently taken into account when trying to get the disabled onto JSA?
c) Adjustments to the working environment which would cost an amount detrimental to the company, especially if the employer is a small business (apparently should not be an issue, thanks Thomas Hardy)
the DWP access to work scheme covers work place adaptions, support workers, interpreters and transport to work for any disabled person who can prove the support is needed.
d) Adjustments to the working environment that would be detrimental to the health and safety (and comfort?) of the other employees
i can't think of what these could be? Could an example be given?
I need to reflect more on this as it is badly worded as stands. I was thinking of all the times people get bullied by other workers because of the adjustments made for them and how this ingrained hostile attitude can be allowed for. Please don't say 'DDA', complaints etc, I and thousands of others know that this goes nowhere and just adds to the unpleasant environment.
I was also thinking of the fact that, for example, my husband needs control of light levels anywhere he goes to be safe (which is why I have to go everywhere with him as this isn't possible) and that would probably be an issue for other workers who need consistent and strong levels of light- either that or I would have to be with him at work as well.
e) Inability of the claimant to be flexible to the business's needs (eg, cannot work additional hours, have their schedule changed, have their place of work changed or work in a different capacity temporarily)
not all jobs require flexible working
But again, you're cutting the possible job pool hugely by eliminating those that never would.
f) Excessive cost for specialised equipment to enable the claimant to carry out their job satisfactorily (again thinking of small businesses)(apparently should not be an issue, thanks Thomas Hardy)
again access to work
If two or more of these apply, claimant should be placed in the support group.'

The ones about cost would be removed.

I don't suppose the government would agree to it, but not from any noble motives about writing people off- simply because it would negate the millions they're planning to save by withdrawing disability benefits from the needy and dumping them on JSA for life.

Some very useful comments, thank you.

GlasweJen

My whole view of the disabled working situation is that the reason disabled people find getting a job difficult is because there are so few disabled people at work (by this I mean disabled people who need visible adjustments).

When having a disabled person in work is normal there will be less !!!!!ing and moaning from able bodied people. You will always get a complete prat who will never be able to work with disabled people but I come across men who can't work with women so bullying in the work place is not an exclusively disabled issue.

My colleagues at my last job were fine with one of the desks being lower and never having a chair at it, no one complained that there was a button on the door to the staff room to open it, no one was particularly fussed that my pens had grips on them, that there was a box under the front desk for the induction loop, that the bump at the door was reduced, that I got a taxi to work or anything else. Yes I was bullied but that was by an ignorant prat of a man so I did what anyone else would do and complained to HR and when that didn't work I got a new job - simple.

I don't know what job a migraine sufferer could do, different things trigger migraines in people. Some migraine sufferers would be brilliant night time receptionists with the dim lights and quiet working environment, a museum or a library would be good for someone who is triggered by noise etc but there are very few migraine sufferers who can't work ever and need support from the state indefinitely.

For the two weeks that I claimed JSA (I was swapped from one branch to another shortly after graduating and had my hours cut to 8 hours before then being offered a different department full time) I could stipulate hours for medical reasons and all that I had wrong with me was black outs (those were the days lol). I never had to prove that I was disabled and needed to work to a restricted set of hours I just told them "I have hospital appointments sometimes in the mornings so I need a job that will allow that".

It doesn't matter that there are less jobs available or that the disabled person would have to think hard about what jobs to apply for - the job centres have people who can work through this process with a disabled claimant (disability work advisors), the support is there to help the disabled person until they are in work (you don't need to be getting money from the government to access a disablity work advisor) and the support continues until the disabled person is settled into the work place. I can call access to work and ask them to reassess me at any time, they will even come into the work and run a disability awareness course for my colleagues if I ask.

If your husband is light sensitive can he not wear dark glasses and learn mobility techniques and echolocation? I'm not sure why a whole room would have to be dimmed for him.

Boomfloom

GlasweJen, the point of this thread is to share our thoughts and experiences. There are various disabilities and people are affected by them in different ways. It is not helpful if you say "there is no reason why a disabled person should be absent significantly more than a non-disabled person."

While your disability does not mean you take extra time off, mine does. I have bowel problems and once the attack starts, I am no use to anybody - I am basically stuck in the bathroom for the duration. Or if the attack prevents me from going to sleep till 5 am, I end up completely exhausted and unable to function. I am sure there are many more conditions (esp fluctuating ones) which could lead to increased absences.

Jobcentre cannot help me. They did not help me years ago when I was on JSA and they are not helping me now. They don't even understand what my job entailed. I know what I need - a similar position to my previous one (IT) but with flexible working hours and the possibility of working from home. This way, I could stay in when an attack is approaching (stress makes them worse), not worry about absences (as there would be none if I could just log in at midnight and work) and do the job I love. However, the employers want bums on seats and will not agree to such an arrangement.

As for the adjustments - while the employer cannot say they will not adjust your desk to your wheelchair, they can and do say that flexi work and telecommuting do not fit with their business needs.

As for the bullying because of adjustments - I doubt anyone would say "you're so lucky to be in a wheelchair". However, they would moan if I was allowed to work from home (since everybody imagines that I would be busy hoovering and doing my washing and all the other things they cannot do cos they are stuck in the office). That's part of the reason employers will not agree to working from home.

When I requested working from home as a reasonable adjustment in my last job, the health and safety rep said that I have entitlement issues. I asked her: if there was a pill that could cure me or at least lessen the symptoms and I wanted to take it, would that too come under entitlement issues?

Finally, let's say I got a job and am sitting right next to you for eight hours a day in an open plan office with no windows that open. How long could you put up with me farting and burping all the time? How popular would that make me among my colleagues? I am quite sure I would end up ostracised and/or bullied. And changing jobs would not help in this case because the problem is my disability. That's what the "detrimental to the comfort of other employees" could entail. For me - a socially-adjusted adult with normal mental capabilities, it's very humiliating to be constantly at the mercy of my bowels at the grand old age of thirty.

GlasweJen

I can sympathise, I've had bowel problems since my teens which wasn't nice and have got worse as time went on. Now I'm in the position where I can't sit up unaided I'm considering a colostomy as it would be easier for me to manage (I think) but that's a big psychological jump, though it was difficult to get my head around pads at first.

Physical issues aside following the diet recommended for incontinent adults to reduce smell is enough to make me confident enough to work.

I know a good few people who work from home in IT as programmers, is it possible that retraining in the type of IT would make home working easier?

Also the job centre should help, they get funding to help and if you shout loud enough you'll find the right person. Although no one particularly minds me being in a wheelchair I've had colleagues complain that I don't do filing or answer the phone - my problems extend miles beyond the chair.

Wicked_witch

I have read posts from you in the past, Glaswejen. I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for your determination and obvious intelligence. You've made some really good points. I think it just comes down to different people having different experiences and so ending up with very different outlooks. It can be hard to see someone's point of view if you instinctively disagree with their veiwpoint. I completely understand and agree with your concern about disabled people being marginalised and employers feeling even more strongly that they have no need to employ a disabled person because 'they'll be fine either way'.

On the other hand of course, bloomfloom's comments are very valid and true.

What I am looking for is a way to help people who are being put into inappropriate groups by the DWP and suffering stress, financial difficulties and worsening of their condition purely because the government want to save money and have chosen to make disabled and poor people the bad guys in order to divert attention from the real culprits.

However, my initial idea might be the wrong way to go about it, so I'm going to drop it for now and think a little more outside the box. In particular, I think at this stage petitions are going to be very hard to find support for, as so many of us have signed them again and again only to get a reply from a faceless department stating in essence 'we will not be changing anything as your concerns mean nothing to us.' The ridiculous volume of signatures needed to get even that response, let alone any chance of having the motion properly acknowledged and debated by MPs, ensures that it is an exercise in futility.

In fact, I think most people are suffering from protest burnout in the face of overwhelming indifference from the government. I certainly am.

Anyway, thanks for your measured and well explained responses.

mysterywoman10

I thought it was a very well thought out and measured proposal Wicked_Witch well done.